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Thread: featherlane-PEX

113 Discord messages from ℹ️ - Information/general/threads/featherlane-pex.md.

Category: ℹ️ - Information Parent channel: #general Thread ID: 1525667356469231717

Messages: 113

message-1525667363998138420

2026-07-12T00:57:25.106+00:00 — namibj

Content

the big one is up to "Extracting VSS" now.
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message-1525674372461760593

2026-07-12T01:25:16.054+00:00 — namibj

Content

yeah so that's definitely not the linear solver I want to use with that behavior.... _I think ?_

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message-1525674418272075806

2026-07-12T01:25:26.976+00:00 — namibj

Content

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message-1525678538252882061

2026-07-12T01:41:49.256+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

@Tholin results
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message-1525678733791465522

2026-07-12T01:42:35.876+00:00 — namibj

Content

If you have amendments to this file, now's the time, to get results before sleepy time.

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message-1525681631518789663

2026-07-12T01:54:06.748+00:00 — namibj

Content

on second thought, I'm gonna take the scarce hours of cold to sleep sooner than later, not gonna be that long anyways, and afterwards the big circuit should maybe be done.
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message-1525681785399152710

2026-07-12T01:54:43.436+00:00 — namibj

Content

(done extracting, that is)
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message-1525914472328462376

2026-07-12T17:19:20.323+00:00 — namibj

Content

@Tholin errrrr, this got 87 mA?

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message-1525914742798159882

2026-07-12T17:20:24.808+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Oh
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message-1525914887539396769

2026-07-12T17:20:59.317+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I wonder if its because the latches have initialized into a metastable state
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message-1525915007492030544

2026-07-12T17:21:27.916+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

87 mA doesn’t feel like a short
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message-1525915159053336697

2026-07-12T17:22:04.051+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I wish I could simulate a few clock cycles
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message-1525915237596008549

2026-07-12T17:22:22.777+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

The best thing I can suggest for a DC analysis is pulling clk_n high
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message-1525915798005092463

2026-07-12T17:24:36.389+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

it should be solving until they stabilize; I'm running with the other solver from earlier again to check though.
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message-1525915872651116635

2026-07-12T17:24:54.186+00:00 — namibj

Content

Feel free to compare the voltages between the two `.prn` files to see if they may be meaningfully different.
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message-1525916767824777286

2026-07-12T17:28:27.612+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

Feel free to edit this into a smol testbench for that; think about `MINTIMESTEPSBP` and the tolerance tunables please to dial in a minimum of actually to-be-taken timesteps that would still be expected to give meaningful results.
A full nonlin solve there didn't take _thaaaat_ long:
```
***** Solution Summary *****
        Number Successful Steps Taken:          1
        Number Failed Steps Attempted:          0
        Number Jacobians Evaluated:             362
        Number Linear Solves:                   362
        Number Failed Linear Solves:            0
        Number Linear Solver Iterations:        70583
        Number Residual Evaluations:            373
        Number Nonlinear Convergence Failures:  0
        Total Residual Load Time:               78.2002 seconds
        Total Jacobian Load Time:               61.0558 seconds
        Total Linear Solution Time:             1952.14 seconds


***** Total Simulation Solvers Run Time: 2152.39 seconds
***** Total Elapsed Run Time:            2247.1 seconds
*****
```

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message-1525917496098558052

2026-07-12T17:31:21.246+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I’m not sure if there are any syntax differences with xyce
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message-1525918360762712076

2026-07-12T17:34:47.398+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

But, in theory, all you need to do is update the beginning of the input stimulus section to
```
*** 5. INPUT STIMULUS ***
V_clk            clk            VSS PULSE( 0 3.3 0 0.1ns 0.1ns 50ns 200ns )
V_clk_n          clk_n          VSS PULSE( 0 3.3 100ns 0.1ns 0.1ns 50ns 200ns )
V_rst_n          rst_n          VSS PULSE( 0 3.3 375ns 0.1ns 0.1ns 5us 6us )
V_rst_override_n rst_override_n VSS PULSE( 0 3.3 375ns 0.1ns 0.1ns 5us 6us )
```
And then run that for a few clock cycles and observe the outputs. This is set up for a 5us long run.
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message-1525918458846384168

2026-07-12T17:35:10.783+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I tried this in ngspice and it just never even started
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message-1525924727342764082

2026-07-12T18:00:05.309+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

feel free to check; notably btw. I've thought you _might_ want to use `.option timeint ERROPTION=1` to explicitly **not** use the classic SPICE "local truncation error", but instead just adjust step size based on how many newton (or whatever nonlinear solver was selected) iterations it took to turn the predictor's (the trapezoidal/backwards-euler/2nd-order-gear time integration forward-model) estimate of the solution variable's values (e.g. node voltages and a bunch of (internal) port currents) into a new solution that is newly compliant with all the non-linear device interaction models up to the configured tolerances (absolute, relative, and what the scale reference is for "relative"; sadly AFAIK there's no straight-forward way to distinguish between current and voltage quantities for that config option, which would be IMO fairly relevant for abstol as e.g. tolerance better than like a single millivolt is probably not required for this type of circuit if one wants to check against DOA and isn't trying to do fancy calibration stuff; also not to forget update-norm and unweighted l2-norm of the residual which are also tunables for deeming the nonlinear solve "sufficciently converged").

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message-1525926691137130597

2026-07-12T18:07:53.514+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

I can mint you a rawfile that you can use with the xschem-integrated viewer. I'd suggest you take a single standard cell from your library, let me run it through the PEX extractor script, and let me hand you a starter-pack Xyce testbench for it (half machine-generated per your wishes as to the excitation pattern for it, but then substantially manually checked by me for not being broken and actually tested), if you want.

Also, if you can generate me a `.gds` flattened as much as this and with no stray labels littered around, you are then allowed to _have labels on internal nets of interest_ or I'd guess there would be some way from the LVS machinery to slap semantically meaningful labels on nets and/or devices.
I'll see to get a `.nodeset`-based initial conditions dump next run which should make it much faster to jump in and test things.

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message-1525955999708745929

2026-07-12T20:04:21.222+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Hold on, I’m trying again with ngspice

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message-1525956119338422272

2026-07-12T20:04:49.744+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I flattened the layout in magic before extracting it, maybe that helps
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message-1525961079094644816

2026-07-12T20:24:32.242+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

It did it!
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message-1525961156496195734

2026-07-12T20:24:50.696+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

And oh man am I happy I tested this because there is a breaking bug in the RTL that I see now
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message-1525967490604073071

2026-07-12T20:50:00.865+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I also see the 87mA static current consumption. Not sure what’s up with that.
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message-1525976551269863454

2026-07-12T21:26:01.096+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I ran a simulation on a LibreLane generated layout. Less standard cells in it, but still had a ~9mA static current consumption.
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message-1525976698632273920

2026-07-12T21:26:36.23+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Possible that its an issue with my SCL? Or the 3.3V FETs have that much of a leakage current?
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message-1525976857810571415

2026-07-12T21:27:14.181+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Because it roughly scales up to the 87mA consumption by standard cell count
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message-1525982137805705387

2026-07-12T21:48:13.03+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Cursed spice deck just containing 3000 buff_16s with the input tied low seems to suggest leakage
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message-1525983162079907890

2026-07-12T21:52:17.236+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Whoa! what the hell? It freaks the hell out if I instantiate 4000 fillcap cells!

Attachments

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message-1525983307018272939

2026-07-12T21:52:51.792+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I guess its the inrush?
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message-1525983319177826384

2026-07-12T21:52:54.691+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

It crashed, btw
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message-1525983350550958234

2026-07-12T21:53:02.171+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

It was supposed to run for much longer
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message-1525983693452218498

2026-07-12T21:54:23.925+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I also noticed that well tap cells extract into.... nothing. Like, empty spice file. So, what exactly is energizing the wells during these simulations, then?
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message-1525989310334242994

2026-07-12T22:16:43.094+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I don’t think I have the time to figure out why the static current consumption on my SCL is so high
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message-1525989342181593089

2026-07-12T22:16:50.687+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I’m just going to have to tape out and pray
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message-1525991699430772818

2026-07-12T22:26:12.699+00:00 — namibj

Content

> . The P(*) and W(*) wildcards are supported for analysis
> modes (TRAN and DC) that support power calculations.
YAY
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message-1525997090541666395

2026-07-12T22:47:38.04+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Not sure how to approach this. If it is one specific cell that is at fault, it might be somewhat difficult to find.
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message-1525997115132612879

2026-07-12T22:47:43.903+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

I'm back on the settings that did the fast results.
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message-1525997248482246836

2026-07-12T22:48:15.696+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I’m going to leave my computer running overnight to see if I can get a analysis done on a extract with parasitics
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message-1525997368015585311

2026-07-12T22:48:44.195+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

Going by earlier processing speed, we should have info in about 30~40 minutes which extracted device(s) are to blame for the power dissipation.
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message-1525997425892917359

2026-07-12T22:48:57.994+00:00 — namibj

Content

I'm not doing transient here btw.
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message-1525997522479218738

2026-07-12T22:49:21.022+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

Can you share the testbench spice?
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message-1525997755330203739

2026-07-12T22:50:16.538+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

And/or that for this mentioned smaller/"more minimized" SCL-bug-reproducer?
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message-1525998210466975744

2026-07-12T22:52:05.051+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I just extracted with
`extract all;ext2sim labels on;ext2sim;extresist tolerance 10;extresist;ext2spice lvs;ext2spice cthresh 0;ext2spice extresist on;ext2spice;`
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message-1525998672733671474

2026-07-12T22:53:55.264+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

This seems to pull 7.5mA static

Attachments

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message-1525999237547036854

2026-07-12T22:56:09.926+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Inputs low
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message-1526004678813421608

2026-07-12T23:17:47.225+00:00 — namibj

Content

Here ya go!

Attachments

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message-1526005316523655198

2026-07-12T23:20:19.267+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I decided to be funny and re-run the flow of secret_message with all logic cells disabled in my SCL except NAND and NOT
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message-1526005334077079743

2026-07-12T23:20:23.452+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

And that made it WORSE
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message-1526005366951772260

2026-07-12T23:20:31.29+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

7.5mA static to 12mA static
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message-1526005410648293426

2026-07-12T23:20:41.708+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Corresponding roughly to the increase in the number of transistors
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message-1526005423759691969

2026-07-12T23:20:44.834+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

This feels like leakage
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message-1526005675585704058

2026-07-12T23:21:44.874+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

I mean, I guess?
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message-1526005802572316685

2026-07-12T23:22:15.15+00:00 — namibj

Content

And if that's the case, this sounds like runaway self-heating waiting to happen.
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message-1526005970847924326

2026-07-12T23:22:55.27+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

As I said, I’m going to have to just tape out and hope
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message-1526006133381267619

2026-07-12T23:23:34.021+00:00 — namibj

Content

re-running with the other possibly-easier-to-digest print formats active for the power print line
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message-1526006191904522323

2026-07-12T23:23:47.974+00:00 — namibj

Content

(using the initial conditions file created)
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message-1526029143496458401

2026-07-13T00:55:00.06+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I did an extraction with resistors and it now idles at 1.9mA instead of 12mA
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message-1526031370130821132

2026-07-13T01:03:50.931+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

"with resistors"? as opposed to including capacitors, or what?
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message-1526031634141286433

2026-07-13T01:04:53.876+00:00 — namibj

Content

Attachments

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message-1526031658829090947

2026-07-13T01:04:59.762+00:00 — namibj

Content

one of the "powers" should be fairly easy to wrangle into a comfy table
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message-1526031902216290345

2026-07-13T01:05:57.79+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Oh, I’ve been doing only transistors so far
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message-1526032199504105653

2026-07-13T01:07:08.669+00:00 — namibj

Content

oh, I've been doing full PEX
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message-1526032283751026940

2026-07-13T01:07:28.755+00:00 — namibj

Content

```
***** Device Count Summary ...
       C level 1 (Capacitor)                  280984
       D level 1,2 (Diode)                      9694
       M level 14 (BSIM4)                      44848
       R level 1 (Resistor)                   267528
       V level 1 (Independent Voltage Source)     22
       ---------------------------------------------
       Total Devices                          603076
***** Setting up matrix structure...
***** Number of Unknowns = 292543
***** Initializing...


Analyzed Singleton Problem:
---------------------------
Singletons Detected!
Num Singletons:      44
---------------------------


ConstructedSingleton Problem:
---------------------------
RatioOfDimensions:   0.99985
RatioOfNonzeros:     0.765899
---------------------------

ZOLTAN Load balancing method = 10 (HYPERGRAPH)

***** Solution Summary *****
        Number Successful Steps Taken:          1
        Number Failed Steps Attempted:          0
        Number Jacobians Evaluated:             558
        Number Linear Solves:                   558
        Number Failed Linear Solves:            0
        Number Linear Solver Iterations:        69386
        Number Residual Evaluations:            571
        Number Nonlinear Convergence Failures:  0
        Total Residual Load Time:               103.587 seconds
        Total Jacobian Load Time:               104.901 seconds
        Total Linear Solution Time:             2080.07 seconds


***** Total Simulation Solvers Run Time: 2370.69 seconds
***** Total Elapsed Run Time:            2547.76 seconds
*****
***** End of Xyce(TM) Simulation
*****
```
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message-1526032426357493942

2026-07-13T01:08:02.755+00:00 — namibj

Content

(turns out, loading from `.nodeset`'s doesn't make it faster; it takes almost twice as long instead... maybe only +50% time)
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message-1526186454827405362

2026-07-13T11:20:06.004+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

According to the PDK docs, the 3.3V PFETs have twice the subthreshold current than 5V PFETs. And the NFETs have 10 times the subthreshold current!
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message-1526187044886417470

2026-07-13T11:22:26.685+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

So they seem to leak a lot more...
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message-1526203632683454535

2026-07-13T12:28:21.524+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I put together a spice bench that is just 256 buff_4 cells back-to-back and a pulse signal source that is low for 500ns, then goes high and stays there for 11us and **good lord what is happening in there?**

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message-1526308937102655648

2026-07-13T19:26:48.054+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

Share; I wanna feed it to Xyce.
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message-1526309525106200657

2026-07-13T19:29:08.245+00:00 — namibj

Content

(in a couple hours tho; I'm not home rn)
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message-1526310368954290207

2026-07-13T19:32:29.434+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

Have you tried/considered longer channels?

Are any of the `_dss` construction perhaps able to squeeze into at least some of your cells and perhaps be less-leaky?
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message-1526310726187352157

2026-07-13T19:33:54.605+00:00 — namibj

Content

....and/or could it be that this is better run with `VDD << 3.3V` assuming it's indeed due to DIBL?
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message-1526319538856001537

2026-07-13T20:08:55.709+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

@Tholin ......
I know I know, "AI bad", etc.; but I didn't spend substantial time promoting here, and these numbers look _seriously **sus**_ to me with `less` and `rg` as well....
Would be great if you could by chance confirm this clock "phasing" to be liable for severe power draw.

And if you'd perhaps be so kind as to make us a `_v5.xyce` by adjusting the inputs, I'd even fast-track that through Xyce over Mosh (remote shell).
https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6a5543dabbc88191a1d7f6b3f8919000

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message-1526326707726844015

2026-07-13T20:37:24.901+00:00 — namibj

Content

....
https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6a554c25a3288191b3b16d66ef7800db

Why do you have hundreds of diode-connected NMOS.....

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message-1526327566728826890

2026-07-13T20:40:49.703+00:00 — namibj

Content

Like I know they have some purposes but I don't think they have any reason to exist in that netlist....
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message-1526328125057925242

2026-07-13T20:43:02.819+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

You mean the antenna diodes?
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message-1526330199296442458

2026-07-13T20:51:17.356+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

Those shouldn't involve `poly2 on comp`, though?
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message-1526330597306273995

2026-07-13T20:52:52.249+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Oh, its probably seeing the decoupling capacitors
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message-1526338945405816974

2026-07-13T21:26:02.591+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

_those account for on the order of 80% of the current draw_
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message-1526339616028889279

2026-07-13T21:28:42.48+00:00 — namibj

Content

I've got it to fix me up an evolved extractor script that is supposed to spit out coordinates mapped to the identifiers in SPICE; if the spice identifiers remained the same I likely have "coordinates of blame" in a couple minutes; if not it'll take about an hour from now to repeat all the analysis processing to find the offenders again.
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message-1526340266959573112

2026-07-13T21:31:17.674+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

This is the decap cell. It uses the gate capacitance of two FETs as a decoupling capacitor.

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message-1526343605944455218

2026-07-13T21:44:33.75+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

Yeah that looks fine.

I'll know soon.
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message-1526348715206377594

2026-07-13T22:04:51.893+00:00 — namibj

Content

Check the net at `x 48500 y 3484` (database units) for mcpu32; there should be a w/l 1.0/0.28 nfet with one diffusion to VSS and the other diffusion somehow resistance-extraction tied to it's gate.
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message-1526350593407455343

2026-07-13T22:12:19.691+00:00 — namibj

Content

Net tracing suggests the voltage is supplied by three pfet fingers of `w/l: 1.38/0.28` who's gates are driven by `din[15]`.
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message-1526352436548079777

2026-07-13T22:19:39.13+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Attachments

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message-1526356539882078299

2026-07-13T22:35:57.441+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

?
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message-1526356790663577821

2026-07-13T22:36:57.232+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

That’s the area in question, roughly
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message-1526356808774717491

2026-07-13T22:37:01.55+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Its in that cell somewhere
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message-1526356975338918108

2026-07-13T22:37:41.262+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Its one of the input buffers
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message-1526357022310666350

2026-07-13T22:37:52.461+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

Look what pfet gates `din[15]` connects to.
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message-1526357122676162560

2026-07-13T22:38:16.39+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

That would be these

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message-1526357407859478730

2026-07-13T22:39:24.383+00:00 — namibj

Content

The drains if them, just so simple "trace single net", and it should highlight you (not only, maybe, but certainly not missing) the diode-connected nfet as that very nfet gate is tied to those pfet drains.
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message-1526357735183089737

2026-07-13T22:40:42.423+00:00 — namibj

Content

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message-1526357773326225418

2026-07-13T22:40:51.517+00:00 — namibj

Content

Be back in 5 minutes!
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message-1526359378725179524

2026-07-13T22:47:14.274+00:00 — namibj

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Can you look at my annotated screenshot/excerpt of this image and explain?
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message-1526360668826108125

2026-07-13T22:52:21.858+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

OH NO!

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message-1526361006748467312

2026-07-13T22:53:42.425+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Well the current doesn't come from that VSS, it comes from the 3 pfet's.
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message-1526361047550922933

2026-07-13T22:53:52.153+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Same loop exists on both sides
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message-1526361145265491988

2026-07-13T22:54:15.45+00:00 — namibj

Content

You have spice based timing extraction for your SCL set up, right?
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message-1526361213401960528

2026-07-13T22:54:31.695+00:00 — namibj

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Yeah that's even worse 😄
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message-1526361461126074468

2026-07-13T22:55:30.757+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Speedrunning a fix. Will go dark while I lock the fuck in.
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message-1526361712817602650

2026-07-13T22:56:30.765+00:00 — namibj

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Could you amend the configured measurements to include supply current, and flag anything that smells like more than subthreshold leakage during any of the "static" moments during the stimuli?
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message-1526361912751951874

2026-07-13T22:57:18.433+00:00 — namibj

Content

If you lack compute, hand me a self contained nix runner.
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message-1526362245339287753

2026-07-13T22:58:37.728+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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You mentioned suspicious behavior for `NAND` and `NOT` .

This is highly concerning.
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message-1526371337462091867

2026-07-13T23:34:45.459+00:00 — namibj

Content

I'm a little surprised/confused your nand4_2 wires the nmos intermediate nets around instead of doing what the 7-track foundry 5V nand4_2 did (a 4-finger nmos with no contacts etween fingers on the left, one on the right, and alternating between VDD contacts and output-m1-collector-snake-contacts on the pmos side.
https://gf180mcu-pdk.readthedocs.io/en/latest/digital/standard_cells/gf180mcu_fd_sc_mcu7t5v0/cells/nand4/gf180mcu_fd_sc_mcu7t5v0__nand4_2.html
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message-1526373113913282670

2026-07-13T23:41:48.998+00:00 — namibj

Reply/reference

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Content

Don't forget `clkbuf_8`!
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message-1526373191600181501

2026-07-13T23:42:07.52+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I didn’t
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message-1526549443229519893

2026-07-14T11:22:29.183+00:00 — RebelMike (@rebelmike)

Content

Well this is exciting.  Good find!  Was it just the (clk)buff_8?  Have you checked that the simulated power consumption is normal on a large design with this fixed?
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message-1526554250946023576

2026-07-14T11:41:35.432+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I still get a few mA of static power consumption that oscillates up and down, but I even get that with the fab 5V SCL. Possible extraction or simulation issue?
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message-1526555494255300758

2026-07-14T11:46:31.86+00:00 — RebelMike (@rebelmike)

Content

Cool, I’ll get my designs rebuilt when I get a chance!
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message-1526555699075743764

2026-07-14T11:47:20.693+00:00 — RebelMike (@rebelmike)

Content

I probably should have tried a spice sim with my designs. As ever I’ve been a bit split between lots of different projects
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