Thread: This was a challenging one! After

34 Discord messages from 𐦂𖨆𐀪𖠋 - Friends/tinytapeout/threads/this-was-a-challenging-one-after.md.

Category: 𐦂𖨆𐀪𖠋 - Friends Parent channel: #tinytapeout Thread ID: 1441431342335393884

Messages: 34

message-1441825017230004234

2025-11-22T16:17:51.921+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

Message ID: 1441825017230004234
Author ID: 509798510170865675
Nickname: Essen
User name: essen__
Type: 21
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https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1409664261952639098/1441431342335393884

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message-1441825023248695368

2025-11-22T16:17:53.356+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

Message ID: 1441825023248695368
Author ID: 509798510170865675
Nickname: Essen
User name: essen__
Type: Default
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Content

Nice, how did you guys go about changing the default cell library ?

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message-1441852630749151293

2025-11-22T18:07:35.497+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

Message ID: 1441852630749151293
Author ID: 538398807986274304
Nickname: ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma
User name: rzioma
Type: Default
Edited: 2025-11-22T18:08:06.471+00:00
Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1441431342335393884/1441852630749151293
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Content

@Essen theoretically it should be just `"STD_CELL_LIBRARY": "gf180mcu_fd_sc_mcu9t5v0",` in `config.json`
BUT there is a bug in the PDK that TT is using, so @htamas had to make a patch: https://github.com/TinyTapeout/tt-gds-action/compare/main...rejunity:tt-gds-action-gf180mcu_fd_sc_mcu9t5v0:main

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message-1441854445972492288

2025-11-22T18:14:48.28+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

Message ID: 1441854445972492288
Author ID: 538398807986274304
Nickname: ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma
User name: rzioma
Type: Default
Edited: 2025-11-22T18:20:30.182+00:00
Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1441431342335393884/1441854445972492288
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Content

So basically you have to
1) clone https://github.com/TinyTapeout/tt-gds-action apply the patch
1.5) add a tag on your patched gds-action repo, I used `ttgf0p2_9t`
2) route your gds.yaml to use patched gds-action repo. something like that: https://github.com/rejunity/tt08-vga-drop/commit/2ac440a4bd84136deccb49f6ed56c4ded1a0a8b7
3) add "STD_CELL_LIBRARY": "gf180mcu_fd_sc_mcu9t5v0", to your `config.json`
4) change Makefile so that Gate Level tests use correct cell library too: https://github.com/rejunity/tt08-vga-drop/commit/22135b09cfd3b970ce26098b89df31547c557192

and you should be done

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message-1441854860197888152

2025-11-22T18:16:27.039+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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Content

You might get around 10..15% speedup from that

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message-1441854891311108286

2025-11-22T18:16:34.457+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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Content

Nice, sounds like it was a fun ride. 👍

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message-1441854899875745843

2025-11-22T18:16:36.499+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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(but loose in area)

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message-1441855011838759112

2025-11-22T18:17:03.193+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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for some definition of fun...

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message-1441855102377005076

2025-11-22T18:17:24.779+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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Edited: 2025-11-22T18:17:36.968+00:00
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Content

I think we all here share a common twisted definition.

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message-1441855466396319804

2025-11-22T18:18:51.568+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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Haha, maybe I should.
For now I don't have any timing issues, at least, assuming the output io doesn't go faster than 50MHz ? 🤷

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message-1441855575964258457

2025-11-22T18:19:17.691+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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Content

I don't think this affects IO cells, only logic/dff

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message-1441855744310906970

2025-11-22T18:19:57.828+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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Content

Yes, just to say that my timing is fine, and I am bottlenecked by the IO, so I have no motivation to up the frequency.

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message-1441855957146800138

2025-11-22T18:20:48.572+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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Content

We need faster, open source IO so bad 🫠

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message-1441856090945097900

2025-11-22T18:21:20.472+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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Content

Anyways, off to lunch 👋 see you around

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message-1441856164923965502

2025-11-22T18:21:38.11+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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Content

Yeah, for MAC-array/SystolicArray you bound to be IO bound, I suppose

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message-1441856246121631774

2025-11-22T18:21:57.469+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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Edited: 2025-11-22T18:28:12.348+00:00
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Content

I added some "noob" input caches to my implementation, some time ago

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message-1441856360139460681

2025-11-22T18:22:24.653+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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https://github.com/rejunity/tiny-asic-1_58bit-matrix-mul

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2025-11-22T18:23:05.422+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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Attachments

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message-1441857018838122537

2025-11-22T18:25:01.699+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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Content

And septenary version: https://github.com/rejunity/tt09-septenary-matrix-mul
Unfortunately never got fab'd due to eFabless going bonk

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message-1441864820407402658

2025-11-22T18:56:01.738+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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Any plans on submitting it to a future shuttle ?

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message-1441874233490669658

2025-11-22T19:33:25.992+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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Yes, for the next sky130 shuttle I would like to implementa input data cache with @tnt SRAM blocks.
I am also very tempted to see how large of an array could fit onto the whole wafer.space chip... maybe even buy a wafer for that 😉 but I don't think I will have time for the first shuttle.

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message-1441875347690881155

2025-11-22T19:37:51.638+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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Sounds like more fun incoming 🙂
Haha, an entire wafer, I would like to see you guys do that.

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message-1441876190053924944

2025-11-22T19:41:12.473+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

Message ID: 1441876190053924944
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Type: Default
Edited: 2025-11-22T19:44:07.832+00:00
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Content

ah, sorry, I didn't mean a wafer scale 😉 though that would be fun!!! Instead wafer.space has an option to get uncut wafer for $2000 with 40 chips of your design (but someone needs to cut and package them 😉)
but still not a bad deal because that gives approximately 128 TinyTapeout tiles worth of an area.

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message-1441880236152066296

2025-11-22T19:57:17.138+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

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Edited: 2025-11-22T19:57:32.211+00:00
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Content

Back of envelope calculation gives me around 10..20 GOPs (something like 16x20 mac array) for a whole chip on 180nm still far from 1TOps 🙂

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message-1441880835169976350

2025-11-22T19:59:39.955+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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Content

@EmbeddedKen this is for you :
> get uncut wafer for $2000 with 40 chips of your design (but someone needs to cut and package them 😉)

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message-1441881044138852502

2025-11-22T20:00:29.777+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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How did I miss that 👀
Damn, looks like I also need a die bonding machine now.

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message-1441881305364041839

2025-11-22T20:01:32.058+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

Message ID: 1441881305364041839
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Nickname: Essen
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Type: Default
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Content

How are you planning on doing the cutting and packaging ? Does one of you own the die bonding machine or know someone that does ?

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message-1441881552165408888

2025-11-22T20:02:30.9+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Message ID: 1441881552165408888
Author ID: 596068704471482370
Nickname: tnt
User name: 246tnt
Type: Default
Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1441431342335393884/1441881552165408888
Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%F0%90%A6%82%F0%96%A8%86%F0%90%80%AA%F0%96%A0%8B%20-%20Friends/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json
Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Information/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json

Content

Well the 2000$ option is only as an addition to the 7000$ slot.

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message-1441881774266253404

2025-11-22T20:03:23.853+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Message ID: 1441881774266253404
Author ID: 596068704471482370
Nickname: tnt
User name: 246tnt
Type: Default
Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1441431342335393884/1441881774266253404
Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%F0%90%A6%82%F0%96%A8%86%F0%90%80%AA%F0%96%A0%8B%20-%20Friends/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json
Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Information/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json

Content

So it's just to get a neat souvenir ... or if you want to do wafer level probing I guess.

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message-1441883417020203114

2025-11-22T20:09:55.516+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

Message ID: 1441883417020203114
Author ID: 509798510170865675
Nickname: Essen
User name: essen__
Type: Default
Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1441431342335393884/1441883417020203114
Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%F0%90%A6%82%F0%96%A8%86%F0%90%80%AA%F0%96%A0%8B%20-%20Friends/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json
Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Information/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json

Content

So sad, you got my hopes up there for a second. 🤣

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message-1441884000544227511

2025-11-22T20:12:14.639+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Message ID: 1441884000544227511
Author ID: 596068704471482370
Nickname: tnt
User name: 246tnt
Type: Default
Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1441431342335393884/1441884000544227511
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Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Information/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json

Content

There is a fixed number of slots in the reticle ...  so the price is pretty much production_cost / num_slots ...  2k$ is the cost to run one more wafer through the flow.

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message-1441884246024261733

2025-11-22T20:13:13.166+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Message ID: 1441884246024261733
Author ID: 596068704471482370
Nickname: tnt
User name: 246tnt
Type: Default
Edited: 2025-11-22T20:13:46.1+00:00
Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1441431342335393884/1441884246024261733
Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%F0%90%A6%82%F0%96%A8%86%F0%90%80%AA%F0%96%A0%8B%20-%20Friends/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json
Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Information/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json

Content

The production costs are (simplified)  maskset_cost  + n_wafer * wafer_processing_cost    and the mask costs is the big chunks and the part which has a limited number of slots.

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message-1441901169281863750

2025-11-22T21:20:27.985+00:00 — ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma (@rzioma)

Message ID: 1441901169281863750
Author ID: 538398807986274304
Nickname: ReJ aka Renaldas Zioma
User name: rzioma
Type: Default
Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1441431342335393884/1441901169281863750
Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%F0%90%A6%82%F0%96%A8%86%F0%90%80%AA%F0%96%A0%8B%20-%20Friends/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json
Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Information/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json

Content

Sad 😉

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message-1442227972890296611

2025-11-23T18:59:04.037+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

Message ID: 1442227972890296611
Author ID: 509798510170865675
Nickname: Essen
User name: essen__
Type: Default
Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1441431342335393884/1442227972890296611
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Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Information/tinytapeout/this-was-a-challenging-one-after/2025-11/2025-11.json

Content

Still a great deal though

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