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Thread: waferspace_die_sorter-discussions-id_fid

38 Discord messages from 📐 - Designing/🏗️-die-sorter/threads/waferspacediesorter.md.

Category: 📐 - Designing Parent channel: #🏗️-die-sorter Thread ID: 1423197534037479514

Messages: 38

message-1423215067754659870

2025-10-02T07:48:34.21+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

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message-1423215073215778887

2025-10-02T07:48:35.512+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Hi @Andrew Wingate, why do you prefer a data matrix over a QR code?

```
Data matrix is my personal choice for now.

At macro scales this can also be used as pin 1 designator

They also can be dots and not full squares.
```

This all applies to QR-codes as well, doesn't it? I would say that the orientation is easier to decode in a QR-code.
If there's no major benefit to a data matrix, I would choose a QR-Code. Simply because for "normal" users this is much easier to read (it is supported by a lot of software nowadays). What is the maximum ECC you can get for a data matrix?
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message-1423216640518262837

2025-10-02T07:54:49.186+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

> This all applies to QR-codes as well, doesn't it?
It does yes

I also believe data matrix does not need an orientation to read.

Seems you can lose 30% with [Data_Matrix_ECC_200](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Matrix#Data_Matrix_ECC_200)
I think the benefit is size but I  have not done the math

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message-1423217315637493813

2025-10-02T07:57:30.147+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Content

QR codes are similar but need more dots per stored bit

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message-1423217359442677800

2025-10-02T07:57:40.591+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

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message-1423219814499090463

2025-10-02T08:07:25.922+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

I thought your main concern was being able to reliable read these? If so, I would go with QR-codes, lowest density and highest ECC.
I would just store the first 8 places of a hash ("AABBCCDD") to distinguish the dies like Efabless did.

People can always add more "Chip art" if they feel like it.
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message-1423222394973065246

2025-10-02T08:17:41.155+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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I think the bar has slid towards a url.

Machine readability makes things super easy for me.
With a cheap microscope you should be able to read one if we get to use the whole area in that corner. (That is the 125um square, correct) example in pasted pic

This choice may make things a little harder for me, but that can remain my problem, but should be easy enough for someone with cheap tools to resolve--keep in mind that I was unable to resolve any of the numbers with the Efabless versions of the numbers.

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message-1423223881032011870

2025-10-02T08:23:35.459+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Whatever you do, please don't use a URL shortener. It wouldn't be great to scan the dies after 10 years have passed, just to see that the URL is dead 🙃
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message-1423223948920750080

2025-10-02T08:23:51.645+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Yes, we can use that area.

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message-1423224025735499806

2025-10-02T08:24:09.959+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Although, I'm wondering why the corner is differently colored...
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message-1423224114260475986

2025-10-02T08:24:31.065+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

We might even get 140x140um

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message-1423224117481701468

2025-10-02T08:24:31.833+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The density may be very similar, so I am going to say it makes little difference to me.
I suppose more people would recognize a qr code as something they can get information from, so that may be the best choice in the end.

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message-1423224651114348644

2025-10-02T08:26:39.061+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Content

Thanks! I can try testing a few things, but my gut says there is enough resolution here not to worry

You mentioned something about the dots causing problems? What would work best?
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message-1423225018736836700

2025-10-02T08:28:06.709+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Arbitrary angles aren't allowed in the GDS afaik. We can use 45° angles however. I'll look into it.
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message-1423225066446913627

2025-10-02T08:28:18.084+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Something like this is a compromise, but there will always be single dots some places
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message-1423225078711324733

2025-10-02T08:28:21.008+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

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message-1423225243165524041

2025-10-02T08:29:00.217+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Yes, but with 45° angles the corners won't touch, so it should be fine :)
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message-1423225294072057948

2025-10-02T08:29:12.354+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I'm sure octagons could work

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message-1423225442684637184

2025-10-02T08:29:47.786+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

No, here you have edges touching 😅
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message-1423225593113215046

2025-10-02T08:30:23.651+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

These are diamonds, but was just showing a few of the options
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message-1423225615296757810

2025-10-02T08:30:28.94+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

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message-1423225685945745441

2025-10-02T08:30:45.784+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Ignore my artistic skills ^^
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message-1423225895375605833

2025-10-02T08:31:35.716+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

haha yes, if those are easy for you, I don't see why that's not viable.

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message-1423226045204795414

2025-10-02T08:32:11.438+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Nevertheless, I would still use the lowest density QR-code.

As you said, having such a small ID will make your life difficult, so why make it even harder by increasing the density? If the URL fits in the given encoding, use it. Otherwise, use a hash.
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message-1423226127446708285

2025-10-02T08:32:31.046+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

This is another example, but figure some regular pattern is easiest for you

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message-1423226234933874769

2025-10-02T08:32:56.673+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Yes, a regular pattern would be nice.
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message-1423226383470952459

2025-10-02T08:33:32.087+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Whatever will be decided on, I can already get started with the QR-code generator.
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message-1423226413028216832

2025-10-02T08:33:39.134+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

Tim has told me to get over myself 😜
So we can disregard a lot of that.
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message-1423228545014173758

2025-10-02T08:42:07.439+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

The main purpose of the ID is to enable automatic sorting of the dies. Therefore, we should use what works the best for this. A hash would suffice. If not, you need to be ready to invest a bit more into microscope equipment to be able to read the ID. (And some people might not be able to read it with their equipment.)

If you want a URL in the layout just for "coolness" (I get it 😉) you can simply add it to some projects. In the core are you're not limited by size and can scale it up so that even a phone camera can read it.

@Tim 'mithro' Ansell something to think about.

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message-1423293248532906135

2025-10-02T12:59:13.96+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

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message-1423295980396220517

2025-10-02T13:10:05.287+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

I think the die ID for sorting can be different to any url / project info ID?
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message-1423301960014106726

2025-10-02T13:33:50.939+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

I agree. And the die ID should be the only requirement for tapeout.

Users can include a project URL or ID in their core area if they wish and if applicable. For example, I don't think a URL would make sense for proprietary designs.
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message-1423303610464338041

2025-10-02T13:40:24.437+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Leo Moser (mole99) - Here is a potentially horrific idea -- Librelane should have a (optional) pass which adds an "Open Silicon Chip Identifier" into the top metal fill?
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message-1423305970301403227

2025-10-02T13:49:47.066+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

That's not a horrific idea, that's actually what I'm doing the precheck flow :)
I added a custom step that replaces the ID in the dummy macro with the actual ID that we want to set.
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message-1423313068703875205

2025-10-02T14:17:59.457+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Leo Moser (mole99) - I mean one which is kind of like the OSHWA registered ID or something?
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message-1423313555830079638

2025-10-02T14:19:55.597+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

BTW I was thinking it would be good if the chip ID was something like `<processtech><runid><projectid><checksum>` - `processtech` == 1 character, `runid` == 2 characters, `projectid` == ??? character -- "Character" could be a-z0-1 eliminating the confusing ones like l/1 and 0/O ?
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message-1423315187020071024

2025-10-02T14:26:24.503+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

LibreLane already has the functionality to add macros to your design. I'll push my changes soon so that you can see how that is done.
If you like, I can create some DRC-clean logos that users can add to their designs if they wish (e.g. wafer.space, OSHW).
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message-1423315336001749104

2025-10-02T14:27:00.023+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Reply/reference

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Content

That should be possible. I think we have 8-10 characters with the highest ECC rate. I'll have to check again later.
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