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#🏗️-die-sorter

464 Discord messages from 📐 - Designing/die-sorter/channel.md.

Category: 📐 - Designing Channel ID: 1419841819138854993

Messages: 464

message-1419842793110507651

2025-09-23T00:28:21.281+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - This look okay?

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message-1419868582321590363

2025-09-23T02:10:49.908+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Hey everyone, like Tim mentioned, we’re building a die-sorting robot!

To give you a sense of scale, here’s what one run looks like:
- 50 full wafers
- 28 reticle shots (each a “group photo” of all projects) per wafer
- 40 unique projects per reticle shot
- Add it up and you get **56,000 project dies**
- Each die is about the size of a few grains of rice: 3.88 mm × 5.08 mm
- Laid out flat, that’s over 8 ft² (0.8 m²) of silicon — basically a coffee table made of chips

In electronics manufacturing, tape-and-reel is the standard way to package components, so that’s our target. We looked at wafer packs (think plastic ice cube trays for chips) and gel packs, but reels make the most sense at this scale.

The wafers will arrive pre-sliced and mounted on tape frames. With so many dies to handle, we’re going straight from wafer to reel — no detours.

I can’t wait to see all the designs people come up with, and I’ll keep posting updates as this project rolls forward (pun intended).
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message-1419869315603370105

2025-09-23T02:13:44.736+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - 3.88 mm x 5.08mm is a lot bigger than a fingernail clipping unless your not clipping your fingernails a normal amount 😛

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message-1419869737147568158

2025-09-23T02:15:25.24+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Yeah.. it's kinda close in sq units. it's a thumbnail at 1mm
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message-1419871206269784176

2025-09-23T02:21:15.506+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

These are very early models, just exploring how all the pieces might fit together into a compact machine; after all, this whole setup has to ship to Singapore!

The concept is straightforward: the wafer sits right in the center, surrounded by 40 tape-and-reel stations (20 on each side). Each station will load a specific die into its own reel and then seal it up with protective film, ready for shipping :)

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message-1420179762336501854

2025-09-23T22:47:21.005+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dXzGoGS7ERWlQNyJ9aNEIOZe-R9AS1tskxvqsQ3FO48/edit?tab=t.0
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message-1420179881924235277

2025-09-23T22:47:49.517+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1coUm6J2RCxoX6v4eKYzD-owmuKActA8mDBkgD4J9ECg/edit?gid=196570729#gid=196570729

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message-1420197771364794389

2025-09-23T23:58:54.692+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

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message-1420200274814832773

2025-09-24T00:08:51.561+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

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message-1420230271302762526

2025-09-24T02:08:03.281+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

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message-1420230781250568222

2025-09-24T02:10:04.862+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - Did you also see https://foss-eda-tools.googlesource.com/third_party/shuttle/gf180mcu/mpw-000/foundry/+/refs/heads/main/manifest-gfmpw-0.csv ?
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message-1420231095215067169

2025-09-24T02:11:19.717+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - @Leo Moser (mole99) is working on the tool which stitches the retcile together @ https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher

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message-1420233600166793288

2025-09-24T02:21:16.944+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Sadly it doesn't seem like the GF180MCU/MPW-001  which are associated with the die I gave you was never published.
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message-1420236420664131605

2025-09-24T02:32:29.403+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - Reading the IDs - https://siliconpr0n.org/archive/doku.php?id=vendor:efabless#reading_efabless_id_numbers
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message-1420273256639889408

2025-09-24T04:58:51.784+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

@Tim 'mithro' Ansell
https://github.com/evezor/waferspace_die_sorter/wiki/Overall-Strategies

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message-1420274059673079830

2025-09-24T05:02:03.242+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - On the holding of the wafer frame, I'm unclear if you need to do something to the wafer frame to allow easy removal of the die.
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message-1420697797799186443

2025-09-25T09:05:50.284+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Thx for some of the info Tim,  -*edit for those watching, we're looking to put dies into smt tape*

EIA STANDARD - 8 mm Through 200 mm Embossed Carrier Taping and 8 mm & 12 mm Punched Carrier Taping of Surface Mount Components for Automatic Handling

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message-1420697849645109339

2025-09-25T09:06:02.645+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The process, packaging, and materials cannot impact the components. This includes their markings and their electrical and mechanical characteristics. Additional guidelines exist for further reference, including:
EIA-383—Preparation for the Delivery of Electrical and Electronic Components
EIA-541—Packaging Material Standards for ESD Sensitive Items
EIA-583—Packaging Material Standards for Moisture Sensitive Items
EIA-624—Product Package Bar Code Label Standard for Non-Retail Applications
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message-1420698207452790904

2025-09-25T09:07:27.953+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I came across an embossing machine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-XQ0Mk-yMQ

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message-1420698501679153255

2025-09-25T09:08:38.102+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

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message-1420699435150741626

2025-09-25T09:12:20.659+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Hey Tim, I was just looking around a bit for some info on smt tape.
Found a generic supplier and it seems like they have a min order of 5km
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Plastic-Packaging-Materials-for-Electronic-Components_1600512330442.html?spm=a2700.prosearch.normal_offer.d_title.186d67afspjYlH&priceId=1b90f94702bb4f568b4c91a9b0425c83

They also have tape, which seems to be around a dollar at qty 100. They never give the real prices until you start talking with them.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/13-3-MM-Width-Smt-Cover_1600521271655.html?spm=a2700.details.you_may_like.2.4a234424fGJnNX

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message-1420701246926491708

2025-09-25T09:19:32.62+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

@Tim 'mithro' Ansell I've been playing with a few cameras and microscopes that I have. That 2mp camera I was talking about cannot read these IDs. Also the crappy usb microscope I have also does nothing to help.
I also have a 48MP microscope and it also cannot read these id's. What I have shown here is about the best zoom I'm able to get out of it. It's possible with some better light we could get a better look, but at the end of the day these are very very small features.

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message-1420701878127296555

2025-09-25T09:22:03.11+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

I would have tought you'd use the position on the wafer to sort, not trying to read those tiny IDs.
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message-1420702410443194379

2025-09-25T09:24:10.024+00:00 — urish

Content

I guess you could also visuallly compare the pattern with a reference, if you want to go optical
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message-1420702721740247124

2025-09-25T09:25:24.243+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I came up with this and wanted your opinion of if this is a viable option.
The idea is to create larger characters that can fit in every corner. The process and run could somehow be encoded if desired, but all that info is in the id anyways.

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message-1420703164302233620

2025-09-25T09:27:09.758+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Tim has expressed interest in verification steps along the way.
Additionally, there seems to be little trust that all wafers will be the exact same (even if this is just how things are mounted on the wafer frame after dicing.
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message-1420703619635744849

2025-09-25T09:28:58.318+00:00 — urish

Content

How many projects are you going to have on a wafer?
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message-1420703649134284800

2025-09-25T09:29:05.351+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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That's also a good idea, but not sure how easy it would be to establish some kind of baseline
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message-1420703761546088448

2025-09-25T09:29:32.152+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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40 projects per reticle shot
28 full reticle shots per wafer
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message-1420703882761207899

2025-09-25T09:30:01.052+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

There will be some partials at the edges and sides that will be discarded afaik
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message-1420704067755442248

2025-09-25T09:30:45.158+00:00 — urish

Content

So we need less than 6 bits of data. I don't think letters are the best way to attack this (but they may just be good enough)
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message-1420704386186739823

2025-09-25T09:32:01.078+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Originally I had thought just naughts and crosses and 'None' could do it, then thought why stop there
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message-1420704581020815372

2025-09-25T09:32:47.53+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

alphabet alone is 26^4 = 456,976
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message-1420704623387344958

2025-09-25T09:32:57.631+00:00 — urish

Content

The other question is whether you also want to encode the run id somehow
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message-1420704669197406321

2025-09-25T09:33:08.553+00:00 — urish

Content

in case one wanted to identify which wafer the die belongs to
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message-1420704681079869520

2025-09-25T09:33:11.386+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

There is also the process and the run, yes
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message-1420704728505126944

2025-09-25T09:33:22.693+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

There is always still the ID
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message-1420704738734768199

2025-09-25T09:33:25.132+00:00 — urish

Content

but is that for the #🏗️-die-sorter
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message-1420704767881248768

2025-09-25T09:33:32.081+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I am not suggesting we remove that
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message-1420704836659183728

2025-09-25T09:33:48.479+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Correct, basically just the die sorter
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message-1420705322804187279

2025-09-25T09:35:44.385+00:00 — urish

Content

so I'd just keep it as simple as possible.

Maybe like 2x2 matrices on each edge, that gives you a total of 16 bits, so you could actually encode the data twice + parity? You can also use some of the bits for detecting the orientation
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message-1420705666712076369

2025-09-25T09:37:06.379+00:00 — urish

Content

Looking at the space, triangle shape (3-bits) will probably fit better
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message-1420705667773370450

2025-09-25T09:37:06.632+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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That's also a great idea.
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message-1420705673011789920

2025-09-25T09:37:07.881+00:00 — urish

Content

something like:
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message-1420705967343013908

2025-09-25T09:38:18.055+00:00 — urish

Content

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message-1420706289788522556

2025-09-25T09:39:34.932+00:00 — urish

Content

then you can just cut these shapes out and start playing tetris with the pieces

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message-1420706719050366976

2025-09-25T09:41:17.276+00:00 — urish

Content

looking at the samples you send, the padring has one darker edge - is that always the case? If yes, then you can use that for orientation
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2025-09-25T09:41:35.301+00:00 — urish

Content

(in any case orientation needs to be sorted out for packaging)
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message-1420706862310887465

2025-09-25T09:41:51.432+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

No, I believe that is just an artifact of my bad lighting

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message-1420708371430117376

2025-09-25T09:47:51.234+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Above, Tim had shared an example output of the reticle stitcher https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1419841819138854993/1420231095215067169
So once a couple of dies are found, creating the map for picking should be prett straightforward after that

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message-1420817507916451991

2025-09-25T17:01:31.4+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Leo Moser (mole99) - Thoughts on IDs?
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message-1420817581639729364

2025-09-25T17:01:48.977+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - Do you have pictures of your microscope / camera set up?
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message-1420818204959313930

2025-09-25T17:04:17.588+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

BTW, are raw dies on reel something common ? (i.e. would packaging house usually be equipped to handle that)
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message-1420818553656971505

2025-09-25T17:05:40.724+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

Side note: I tried reading the die-ID on my MPW1 chip with my microscope and no way ... I can barely make-out the OSHW logo and that's if I light it at just the right angle ...
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message-1420824609187565689

2025-09-25T17:29:44.475+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Guess I got too use to having access to @digshadow's higher end equipement 🙂

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message-1420824747620438078

2025-09-25T17:30:17.48+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate / @Leo Moser (mole99) - We probably want a "pin 1" type marker as well for orientation.
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message-1420848428375609416

2025-09-25T19:04:23.412+00:00 — digshadow

Content

@Tim 'mithro' Ansell how quickly do you need something? maybe sync up this weekend?
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message-1420855935676579991

2025-09-25T19:34:13.292+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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@digshadow - Well, having an ID which is readable by people beyond your friends seems like something we should do 🙂
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message-1420856046561398927

2025-09-25T19:34:39.729+00:00 — digshadow

Content

Hmmm? Need more context
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message-1420856157630632098

2025-09-25T19:35:06.21+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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Dunno - but reels are the preferred format for PCBA houses normally.
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message-1420856456072269905

2025-09-25T19:36:17.364+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

Yeah, because of pick and place machines, but if the machine dealing with dies aren't made for those, that won't help 😅
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message-1420856751896400016

2025-09-25T19:37:27.894+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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At the moment the IDs which where used on the Google shuttles don't seem to be easily readable by the equipment that @tnt or @Andrew Wingate have. Thus it might be good for us to go with an ID which is bigger and allows more people to read them easily without having to get a good microscope from you 🙂

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message-1420857185956663518

2025-09-25T19:39:11.382+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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@tnt - Yeah, these are the type of questions we are trying to sort out now, I'd like to do at least some type of short PCBA with wire bonding run (probably using GFMPW-0 or GFMPW-1 ICs) ASAP.
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message-1420953723693170780

2025-09-26T02:02:47.772+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Pardon the mess.
This is the microscope I used to send the picture above. The crappy little black usb microscope on it's side also did not seem to work very well. Some of it could be bad lighting, user error, or they really are just too small to be read by crappy equipment.

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message-1420953920221614231

2025-09-26T02:03:34.628+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Yes, a pin1 is probably highly useful
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message-1420954192733929634

2025-09-26T02:04:39.6+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I was trying to come up with something that would still be at least partially useful if the dies were cut up further, but I think now that's another problem.
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message-1420957204512641034

2025-09-26T02:16:37.664+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Expanding on @urish idea of some bitwise information encoded into the corners we could also go maybe as far as something like this
if the corners of the triangles are always black--or whatever color--that could be used to identify location/skew/etc. and if triangle has a side length of 5 that leaves 12bits of info per corner--this obviously does not count for the pin1 corner though.
The deeper we dive into this, the more it seems like it may be useful to keep these human readable.

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message-1420959143665336342

2025-09-26T02:24:19.994+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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@Andrew Wingate - I think @Leo Moser (mole99) thoughts are important, as he is the one who will have to implement it 🙂
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message-1420959649150009454

2025-09-26T02:26:20.511+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Oh, of course!
I was just throwing anything at the wall to see if it sticks.
You are correct, I've been thinking more application than implementation.
@Leo Moser (mole99) I would love some advice on what's possible and easiest to implement.
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message-1420960320884707348

2025-09-26T02:29:00.665+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

@Leo Moser (mole99) I see on this chip I have there are *?different layers?*  that  have different colors. Is it possible to do something like what's pictured here for the best contrast?

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message-1420961146793365565

2025-09-26T02:32:17.577+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

It seems there are a couple dies on this wafer that have done something similar

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message-1420987192679075872

2025-09-26T04:15:47.4+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Maybe people in the SiliconPrawn discord might have thoughts - they have spent lots of time looking at various markings / doodles on chips.
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message-1420992567193112628

2025-09-26T04:37:08.784+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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message-1421037598465331222

2025-09-26T07:36:05.076+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

IME contrast / color is extremely dependent on how you light the samples.
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message-1421044969031860327

2025-09-26T08:05:22.356+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

I'm on my way back from Austrochip, so I can reply to questions again :)

I started [gf180mcu-precheck](https://github.com/wafer-space/gf180mcu-precheck) a few days ago. It is a custom LibreLane flow to read the user GDS, perform various checks (e.g. top-level, density, etc.), insert the ID, and whatever else we need. At the end, you receive the final GDS used for fabrication.

I use the KLayout API to generate the shapes for the ID. Currently, I'm using the built-in TEXT PCell to generate the digits for the ID, but we can use anything else: a QR code, a pattern of dots etc.

One thing to consider: we should not specify a fixed position for the ID. Instead, we provide an abstract cell for the ID that the user can place anywhere on their die, which is later replaced with the generated ID. This allows to do custom padframes (or no padframes at all). I can extract the position of the ID cell during the precheck. With the location of the die on the reticle and the offset of the ID, you can position the camera above the ID.

As for the layers, I would place the ID at Metal5 (topmost layer) with a no-fill shape around it. I assume this will give enough contrast. There are ways to achieve different colors with diffraction patterns, however, I'm no expert on that :)

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message-1421047393549287457

2025-09-26T08:15:00.406+00:00 — urish

Content

We did some experimentation with diffraction patterns on ttihp0p3, we may have some results when we get back the chips (Dec?)
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message-1422433838281261118

2025-09-30T04:04:14.589+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Leo Moser (mole99) / @Andrew Wingate - I responded at https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher/issues/1#issuecomment-3346714007

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message-1422434187239096452

2025-09-30T04:05:37.787+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

I would love people like @tnt to be able to identify they got the right part and the pin zero / orientation  🙂
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message-1422441926141149254

2025-09-30T04:36:22.885+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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@Tim 'mithro' Ansell and @Leo Moser (mole99)
For reference, the first pic was taken with my phone. Pretty new samsung.
Second is taken with one of those super cheap usb microscopes

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message-1422487819716395068

2025-09-30T07:38:44.766+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Reply/reference

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Content

The cheap microscope looks quite good already! Did you take the picture with your phone in macro mode?
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message-1423009854016192593

2025-10-01T18:13:07.442+00:00 — carlfk

Content

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message-1423012418581299221

2025-10-01T18:23:18.882+00:00 — carlfk

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https://youtu.be/CPmMfasVxbY?t=396

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message-1423022395522023655

2025-10-01T19:02:57.57+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Leo Moser (mole99) / @Andrew Wingate - Just had a random idea which may or may not be very good.

It would be *nice* if we could embed two pieces of information (probably optionally?) --
 (a) The checksum of the source file and
 (b) a URL / Link to the GDS (maybe stored on archive.org or something?)

Basically if someone is looking at the die being able to get a link to the source code for the project would be pretty rad.......

Would probably need to be a QRCode type thing?

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message-1423023043873341593

2025-10-01T19:05:32.149+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

There are also a number of lesser node QRCode versions, like the Micro QRCode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_code#Micro_QR_code) and the Rectangular Micro QR Code (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectangular_Micro_QR_Code).

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message-1423023286237003969

2025-10-01T19:06:29.933+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Matrix is an alternative to QRCodes which store a lot of data in a small area too.

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message-1423023414968455279

2025-10-01T19:07:00.625+00:00 — urish

Content

I was just about to mention data matrix
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message-1423023638130589697

2025-10-01T19:07:53.831+00:00 — urish

Content

Another way to go about this is to create some kind of open source chip registry
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message-1423023668069400758

2025-10-01T19:08:00.969+00:00 — urish

Content

and give each chip a unique number
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message-1423023698931355708

2025-10-01T19:08:08.327+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

> The most popular application for Data Matrix is marking small items, due to the code's ability to encode fifty characters in a symbol that is readable at 2 or 3 mm2 (0.003 or 0.005 sq in) and the fact that the code can be read with only a 20% contrast ratio.[1] A Data Matrix is scalable; commercial applications exist with images as small as 300 micrometres (0.012 in) (laser etched on a 600-micrometre (0.024 in) silicon device)
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2025-10-01T19:08:12.735+00:00 — urish

Content

like you have ISBN for books
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2025-10-01T19:08:50.844+00:00 — urish

Content

ISOCI (International Standard Open Chip Id)
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message-1423023905924317345

2025-10-01T19:08:57.678+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@urish - I was thinking about the same thing. Maybe something we could look at with the https://oshwa.org/ ?

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message-1423023990246735953

2025-10-01T19:09:17.782+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

They have https://certification.oshwa.org/#

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2025-10-02T03:26:13.25+00:00 — h_thoreson (@h_thoreson_71412)

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uuid
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2025-10-02T04:50:48.881+00:00 — GitHub

Content

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message-1423170582698262598

2025-10-02T04:51:48.146+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

@Tim 'mithro' Ansell I got the webhook going. We can add others later if you'd like, or create a more general channel that just catches them all. \
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message-1423170913108758648

2025-10-02T04:53:06.922+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Example of what came out of that script. @Tim 'mithro' Ansell asked how I came up with yield numbers, so am showing work

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2025-10-02T05:25:50.965+00:00 — GitHub

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message-1423188788854653000

2025-10-02T06:04:08.832+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

@Tim 'mithro' Ansell @Leo Moser (mole99) @urish

These are all great!
I have a few OSHWA certified things (I have been lazy about posting more) https://certification.oshwa.org/us002531.html

If it's a machine readable code it would be nice if it were a URL
This URL is over 40 chars which would put it in the 22-24x range. This density also just starts to look like a dot at macro scales and would fill the pin1 specification

Data matrix are more meant for smaller things so I believe this should be the default choice. They are also read by my phone natively so that is a bonus.

I think this puts us with wanting some kind of ISBN like @urish was saying, but this could just as easily be a serial number.
Also having this point to a website also allows a place to put all the fabrication data, ie. process, run#, date and everything else.
This has the added benefit I think of also having a way to point to source files--*or not depending if you want to**

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2025-10-02T06:11:00.796+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

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Are dies good right up to the edge ? Or is there a min distance from the wafer edge for them to be viable ?
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2025-10-02T06:12:33.977+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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This is something I actually have no knowledge in. It should be pretty easy to change when we do know. The entire thing was an artifact of creating pick maps and the sort
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2025-10-02T06:13:14.557+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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also it looks pretty :)

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2025-10-02T06:17:53.709+00:00 — Valgamaa (@valgamaa)

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It depends on your definition of good, but a mature process should have defects evenly distributed across the wafer. If they aren’t then there is a systematic problem in the process that the foundry would work to eliminate.

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2025-10-02T06:21:22.44+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

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@Valgamaa What I meant is I recently saw some wafers ( might have been at IHP can't remember if it was those one ) where there was a visually apparent borders of a few mm around the physical wafer edge were obviously some of the processing wasn't done right up to the edge and so any die in that area would obviously be scrap. But I don't know if this is standard and how it is for GF180mcu specifically.
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2025-10-02T06:37:49.277+00:00 — GitHub

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2025-10-02T06:38:53.846+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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I have compiled a bit of this discussion and will try to keep it up to date and be a little more persistent.
https://github.com/evezor/waferspace_die_sorter/tree/main/discussions/id_fiducial_other

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2025-10-02T07:48:34.413+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

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Started a thread.
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2025-10-02T08:28:34.65+00:00 — Valgamaa (@valgamaa)

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It seems to be quite normal these days that the steppers stay within the radius of the wafer with a small margin. I guess there is no point in exposing to the edge where part of the chip lies off-chip, that is a waste of time. This isn't (shouldn't be) because the processing 'quality' deteriorates towards the edge, just a practical limit for handling the wafer. Having said that, I did one see a bipolar process that used epitaxy for the base and growth rate was higher towards the centre of the wafer. This resulted in devices where each wafer had the full process spread depending on where on the wafer the die were taken from; higher ft at the edges, higher Vceo towards the centre. It was soon discontinued!
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2025-10-02T13:12:25.242+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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You can see the edge of a wafer in pictures on the website.
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2025-10-02T13:12:50.912+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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2025-10-02T13:13:10.947+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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That is a GF180MCU wafer
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2025-10-02T13:43:45.266+00:00 — algofoogle (Anton Maurovic) (@algofoogle)

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Ooh I see my die in there, on the edge 🙂

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2025-10-02T13:46:21.967+00:00 — urish

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Makes me wonder - if you chop the top corner off a TT die, would it still be functional to some extent (as long as the controller, muxes, power pins, the mux control pins and a few IO pins are still there...)
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2025-10-02T14:03:22.133+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

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My dies are in almost all the pictures and very recognizable...

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2025-10-02T14:08:42.365+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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@algofoogle (Anton Maurovic) - Really!?
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2025-10-02T14:08:56.868+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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@Tholin - Which one is yours?
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2025-10-02T14:09:17.194+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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@Tholin - You did send me the largest number of die 🙂
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message-1423311305149780142

2025-10-02T14:10:58.993+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I put a logo on both my designs
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message-1423311495604731984

2025-10-02T14:11:44.401+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

That’s what makes them recognizable

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message-1423311797473120286

2025-10-02T14:12:56.372+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

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message-1423312197232230551

2025-10-02T14:14:31.682+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Yes
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message-1423315500342968400

2025-10-02T14:27:39.205+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

I have a high-res here: `https://tholin.dev/content/static?id=E2zxGmncnZDV`
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message-1423415584770490439

2025-10-02T21:05:21.192+00:00 — algofoogle (Anton Maurovic) (@algofoogle)

Reply/reference

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Yeah, there it is…

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message-1426502760643301467

2025-10-11T09:32:41.277+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate Here is what ChatGPT came up with regarding dicing saws

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2025-10-11T13:26:29.186+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Cool!!
I clicked on all the links. Seems there is a lot of convergent design, I can't really tell the difference between any.
Wonder how true chatgpt's numbers are.
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message-1441128186493665451

2025-11-20T18:08:54.527+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

There's a lot that I don't like but figured I'd share some images.
There will be a couple banks of tape feeders the dies will be sorted into. This is a single bank

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message-1441187458002845746

2025-11-20T22:04:25.956+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Leo Moser (mole99) - See above -^
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message-1441305626855608330

2025-11-21T05:53:59.606+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Looks nice 👍
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message-1443391361851195402

2025-11-27T00:01:57.58+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

reckon it's possible for a small handful of dies to get sorted out separately? I.e. I'd love like 20 dies to have bare (microscopy, die shots, etc) and the rest sent off to the COB folks
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message-1443399195418689587

2025-11-27T00:33:05.248+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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I'm sure that is doable!
@Tim 'mithro' Ansell you agree?
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message-1443399584847237192

2025-11-27T00:34:38.095+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

I'd probably suggest cutting off a bit of the tape before it gets sent off or something like that?
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message-1443399763683840181

2025-11-27T00:35:20.733+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Yeah, something like that is what i had in mind
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message-1443402391889383569

2025-11-27T00:45:47.346+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

❤️ that would be rad! fwiw, would also be happy to pay for the extra hassle. just didn't want to splash out for a whole extra wafer 🙂

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message-1443402942345642024

2025-11-27T00:47:58.585+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

funnily enough, that drastically increases my confidence of placing an order. even if the chip is completely unusable from my bad design (putting that at like 70% chance heh), i can still make a nice video about it with microscope photos 🙂
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message-1443403228766011432

2025-11-27T00:49:06.873+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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You're in the states and so am I, that makes getting a small thing to you fairly trivial for me.

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message-1443409279993249843

2025-11-27T01:13:09.598+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@BreakingTaps - There will most certainly be a bunch of assets useful for marketing and such floating around.

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message-1443418751507759264

2025-11-27T01:50:47.783+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

good to know!
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message-1443418830817857596

2025-11-27T01:51:06.692+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

guess I'm probably committed then 😅

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message-1443442407667662989

2025-11-27T03:24:47.851+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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Credit card time? 😛

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message-1443582662890750043

2025-11-27T12:42:07.302+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

think so! will get it sorted today 👍
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message-1444097599526142144

2025-11-28T22:48:17.763+00:00 — asic destroyer (@logic_destroyer)

Content

Which package will the GF180MCU chip come in?
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message-1444098695804096585

2025-11-28T22:52:39.136+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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If you get the bare die, you will get your raw compnents on 12mm SMT tape.
If you ordered them to be COB, you will get them on a PCB with mezzanine connector like being discussed on #📦-cob or the github https://github.com/wafer-space/chip-on-board-wire-bonded-pcbs

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message-1446604192633585787

2025-12-05T20:48:36.13+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

Content

Hey guys, I have a terrible idea : https://www.govdeals.com/en/asset/23504/20379
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message-1446604255245893858

2025-12-05T20:48:51.058+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

Content

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message-1446768782499516416

2025-12-06T07:42:37.412+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Sadly -- Wafer Size: 2-4 inches -- I get 8inch wafers.
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message-1448216421778853929

2025-12-10T07:35:01.512+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The SMT tape has been manufactured. We should have it in our hands in a couple weeks.

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message-1448488513279627376

2025-12-11T01:36:13.181+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Hopefully these are the right size.

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message-1448517294228639810

2025-12-11T03:30:35.094+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

This is to scale, so looks like it
-# die image credit to @Tholin Looks great thank you

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message-1448564976397848596

2025-12-11T06:40:03.409+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

@Leo Moser (mole99) or @Tim 'mithro' Ansell
When you guys get a chance can you share some of the outputs from https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher
and/or `manifest-wsmpw1.csv` or  `tilemap-wsmpw1.csv` or whatever I can use for die size/project/location/etc..

It probably would be beneficial if whatever this is could also be used to create a dicing plan.

Thanks

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message-1448675584447217728

2025-12-11T13:59:34.423+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Reply/reference

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Started a thread.
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message-1448686739085594808

2025-12-11T14:43:53.896+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Still a work in progress, but think I have updated my wafer mapper to the new reticle sizes and die shapes.
-# I also know there is a dead area near the edges I need to account for

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message-1448735743248961547

2025-12-11T17:58:37.399+00:00 — carlfk

Content

Somewhere @Tim 'mithro' Ansell said something like "same number of reticle shots, but the reticle is smaller"
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message-1448735887340077180

2025-12-11T17:59:11.753+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

reticle is the same size, we just can't use as much of it.
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message-1448736019955585241

2025-12-11T17:59:43.371+00:00 — carlfk

Content

ok - does that might mean there is dead areas between the shots?
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message-1448736116176982037

2025-12-11T18:00:06.312+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

No
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message-1448736200243286320

2025-12-11T18:00:26.355+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

There are just some larger cut lines
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message-1448736406267498722

2025-12-11T18:01:15.475+00:00 — carlfk

Content

something doesn't fit.
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message-1448736506784120993

2025-12-11T18:01:39.44+00:00 — carlfk

Content

if all of the reticle was used, would there be overlap across shots?
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message-1448737043801833704

2025-12-11T18:03:47.475+00:00 — carlfk

Content

is the size of the shot on the wafer constant?
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message-1448743387644690493

2025-12-11T18:28:59.965+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

The size of the reticle is 32000x26000, the size of the usable area is 30000x24000.
I think Andrew is aware that he isn't done yet, as he mentioned above:

> I also know there is a dead area near the edges I need to account for
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message-1448904976817717289

2025-12-12T05:11:05.826+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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No, I was only referring to the edge of the wafer.
I didn't know at the time the reticle was the same size, we were only allowed to use part of it.
I have an example here, the blue lines are still considered 'cuts' here, but I'll look deeper into that later.
At any rate the die locations should all be accurate now, thank you for the clarifications

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message-1448909089047445515

2025-12-12T05:27:26.258+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

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2025-12-12T06:53:22.395+00:00 — GitHub

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2025-12-12T06:53:45.466+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Forgot this repo was tied here
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message-1448933119754506251

2025-12-12T07:02:55.625+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - I /think/ the cuts will probably end up in exactly the same size despite the weird slot sizes around the corner......
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message-1448933994631663616

2025-12-12T07:06:24.212+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

There are extra 1mm wide dies that are on here that will not actually be dies, but will still be on the wafer.
@Leo Moser (mole99) said
> The size of the reticle is 32000x26000, the size of the usable area is 30000x24000.
which leaves 1mm around all the edges of *our reticle* but the reticle shots will still be spaced on the 32000x26000 spacing.

At least that's how I'm reading this right now.
I know there's some cleanup to do but overall this is correct yes?
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message-1448934838680686673

2025-12-12T07:09:45.449+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

@Tim 'mithro' Ansell
Is this a little more clear?

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message-1448935051600597062

2025-12-12T07:10:36.213+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

What are the red dots?
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message-1448935106751238215

2025-12-12T07:10:49.362+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Those are my pick locations
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message-1448935338335670304

2025-12-12T07:11:44.576+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The green ones will be ignored.
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message-1448935543701373018

2025-12-12T07:12:33.539+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

better?

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message-1448935867464024085

2025-12-12T07:13:50.73+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

I ***suspect*** the layout to look like that original reticle diagram, with our portion of the reticle aligned with the bottom left edge of the reticle. That then means that even though we only get to use a percentage of the small slots the die still end up as the same size.
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message-1448936326039863399

2025-12-12T07:15:40.063+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

That's an easy fix, for now I'll just assume it's centered, but the patterning will still be on the 32000x26000 spacing, correct?
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message-1448936701274755147

2025-12-12T07:17:09.526+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - Does carl still have the GFMPW-0 / GFMPW-1 wafers around?
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message-1448937008897458290

2025-12-12T07:18:22.869+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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I have this

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message-1448937172848873566

2025-12-12T07:19:01.958+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Is that a gf180mcu or sky130 wafer?
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message-1448937241857490976

2025-12-12T07:19:18.411+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I don't know, sorry
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message-1448937522796302416

2025-12-12T07:20:25.392+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Does this help?

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message-1448937664257458257

2025-12-12T07:20:59.119+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

@algofoogle (Anton Maurovic) and @Tholin both have dies on this wafer I believe?
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message-1448938036296552569

2025-12-12T07:22:27.82+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

Also, yes, I think @carlfk has one in his foop
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message-1448938148099784805

2025-12-12T07:22:54.476+00:00 — algofoogle (Anton Maurovic) (@algofoogle)

Content

That’s not a sky130, because it is too golden

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message-1448938371740074037

2025-12-12T07:23:47.796+00:00 — algofoogle (Anton Maurovic) (@algofoogle)

Content

Oh yeah, there’s my die 🙂

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message-1448939394579955775

2025-12-12T07:27:51.66+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

I expect it will look like the following

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message-1448939820326981652

2025-12-12T07:29:33.166+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

Lower left could just be the reference frame. There isn't enough information here to say either way.
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message-1448940178302439597

2025-12-12T07:30:58.514+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Looking at it, I think it would be cool to get one of the small scribe type cutters and get whole single reticle shots. Mount them in a picture frame or something :)
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message-1448940222724178051

2025-12-12T07:31:09.105+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

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message-1448940329888907315

2025-12-12T07:31:34.655+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

That's the dicing plan?
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message-1448940426659631156

2025-12-12T07:31:57.727+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

oh, nvm.
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message-1448940599289053275

2025-12-12T07:32:38.885+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

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message-1448940761344381072

2025-12-12T07:33:17.522+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

So the blue squares are all the same size even though we are only allowed to use part of those
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message-1448940763705643051

2025-12-12T07:33:18.085+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

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message-1448941570798780427

2025-12-12T07:36:30.511+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

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message-1448941713438801933

2025-12-12T07:37:04.519+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Yeah, something like that
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message-1448941790529847328

2025-12-12T07:37:22.899+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

But I could be totatly wrong....
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message-1448942134911565844

2025-12-12T07:38:45.006+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The real question is: are the green lines cut lines.
If not that makes my life so much easier :D

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message-1448942363673100317

2025-12-12T07:39:39.547+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Probably not....
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message-1448942464923865108

2025-12-12T07:40:03.687+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Wooh Hoo!!
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message-1448942484347686984

2025-12-12T07:40:08.318+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Reply/reference

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Content

For future shuttles, yes. Otherwise it won't be possible to get more of the smaller slot sizes.
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message-1448942567692570674

2025-12-12T07:40:28.189+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Yeah, maybe in the future.
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message-1448942582766768229

2025-12-12T07:40:31.783+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Even for this shuttle I was thinking we cut the dies in the correct size.
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message-1448942698420506752

2025-12-12T07:40:59.357+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

I'm not sure how the bonding works if you need to go across half the die.
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message-1448942913789759529

2025-12-12T07:41:50.705+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Yeah
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message-1448943039287529492

2025-12-12T07:42:20.626+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Probably it wouldn't work, because the bond wires would touch the die.
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message-1448943392133480572

2025-12-12T07:43:44.751+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Reply/reference

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Started a thread.
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message-1448944024500306002

2025-12-12T07:46:15.519+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Reply/reference

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Content

So yes, we need to cut the green lines to get the correct die size.
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message-1448944365815726100

2025-12-12T07:47:36.895+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

@Andrew Wingate It's a good preparation for the next shuttle, where we might want to add another cut here.

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2025-12-12T07:48:57.161+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I've been reorganizing my code to accommodate these kinds of shenanigans ;)
I have figured

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2025-12-12T07:49:38.629+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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we will start to run into some problems with the sheer amount of projects on a single ~~die~~ wafer, I haven't quite figured that one out, but am keeping an eye on it.
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message-1448946421373079634

2025-12-12T07:55:46.978+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Solving this problem would definitely be the holy grail of shuttle services 😉
This way, wafer.space can accommodate the slots that customers actually need instead of the other way around.
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message-1448946565690556547

2025-12-12T07:56:21.386+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

By the way @Andrew Wingate, when you have the time, could you also create CoB PCBs for the other slot sizes?

You can find the pad assignments here: https://github.com/wafer-space/gf180mcu-project-template/tree/main/librelane/slots
If you want to take a look at the GDS, you can download it at the bottom of each CI run: https://github.com/wafer-space/gf180mcu-project-template/actions/runs/20094869649
(Can be opened with [KLayout](https://www.klayout.de/).)

Let me know if you have any questions.
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message-1448947020730728558

2025-12-12T07:58:09.876+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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I spoke with @Tim 'mithro' Ansell a bit ago saying that sometime after this shuttle has lauched to the fab, at least you, Tim, and I have a conversation about run2 and how we should position ourselves for best results.
This topic was one that's obviously on the list
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message-1448947074291994686

2025-12-12T07:58:22.646+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

*like a conference call or something*
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message-1448951397419843655

2025-12-12T08:15:33.36+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Sure. We can do that right after the reticle has been sent out.

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message-1449166636618747914

2025-12-12T22:30:50.384+00:00 — carlfk

Content

@Tim 'mithro' Ansell Miniapolos die cutter intro.  Next week is the week we should go

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2025-12-14T00:50:03.176+00:00 — asic destroyer (@logic_destroyer)

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crazy
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message-1450540280582377493

2025-12-16T17:29:12.626+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

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any chance of getting fewer but larger dies in the future? or woudl that mess up the dicing patterns too much?
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2025-12-16T17:30:04.503+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

(or even the same number, larger and more expensive. I just want more SRAM 😅 )
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2025-12-16T17:40:06.737+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

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Well, you can start by using the 3v3 SRAM 😁
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2025-12-16T17:40:53.082+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

i did forget about that! is that in a working state?
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2025-12-16T17:40:56.962+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

_searches backlog_
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2025-12-16T17:41:11.873+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

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After that you could do multi-die ? You have one die of _just_ SRAM and you bond it directly to your "compute" die 😁

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2025-12-16T17:41:17.465+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

chiplets FTW.
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2025-12-16T17:41:45.21+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

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"working"  is unknown, we'll see after this tapeout.

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message-1450543535127527619

2025-12-16T17:42:08.57+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Reply/reference

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Content

Let me just clear a few things up: The photo masks are produced for the reticle, which is 30x24mm (actually 32x26mmm, but we can't use the full area atm). We subdivide this area into 40 slots, some are full size, others are smaller.

The photo mask is exposed and moved across the wafer multiple times to cover the whole wafer. wafer.space ordered a fixed number of wafers from GF, which means we end up with a certain number of dies.
Giving you fewer dies won't increase the size of your project, we would have to throw them away as they are produced anyway.

However, we can increase the size of your project by merging two 1x1 slots. This would be possible if wafer.space uses laser dicing (which we don't use for run 1), as otherwise we would cut through your project.

So, yes, it's possible in theory, but it would be more expensive.

PS: For this special first run, we actually duplicated all paid projects so that wafer.space could order less wafers, but can still fullfil the 1000 dies per project. In this case we could have actually doubled the area for your design and you would have received the half amount of dies. However, we still don't use laser dicing ^^
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message-1450543913701212345

2025-12-16T17:43:38.829+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

gotcha, thanks! yeah the "cut through the project with a saw" was the part I was worried about, didn't think of laser dicing though. perhaps in the future after a few successful runs and wafer.space is solidly established 🙂

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message-1450545157400432802

2025-12-16T17:48:35.35+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

out of curiosity, what's the order-of-magnitude cost difference for laser dicing vs saw?
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message-1450545362560487546

2025-12-16T17:49:24.264+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

are they just nanosecond 1064nm fiber lasers, or something fancier ("stealth dicing" with femtosecond or whatever)
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message-1450548971083661424

2025-12-16T18:03:44.603+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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@BreakingTaps - See some diagrams earlier in this channel....
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message-1452538571662819460

2025-12-22T05:49:42.346+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - How many retcile shots does a complete wafer have again?
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message-1452538885593890937

2025-12-22T05:50:57.193+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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I think only 20 full ones
https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1419841819138854993/1448940763705643051
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message-1452539724890771549

2025-12-22T05:54:17.297+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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Content

Seems like you were saying ~28 here?
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message-1452540343479308454

2025-12-22T05:56:44.78+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I guess I don't really know what you're asking
some of them may be just short of full

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message-1452540891859390537

2025-12-22T05:58:55.524+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

@Tim 'mithro' Ansell I guess there may be 28
https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1419841819138854993/1420230271302762526
I don't quite know where all my offsets away from the edge are supposed to stay.
I guess I was being a little too conservative
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message-1452866337335410698

2025-12-23T03:32:07.772+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

We're looking to get some wafers diced and needed to get some drawings out for quotes.
Figured I'd share here with you all as well.

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message-1453302106596446208

2025-12-24T08:23:43.26+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Hey all, got a few updates.
First off, the SMT tape and reel components have arrived.

I hadn't realized the 13" reels come unassembled, which is nice for shipping I guess.
I'm also not sure anyone would be getting their components on these reels or not. There are a lot of questions in the air about actual yields, but a 7" reel would *barely fit* so am opting to design with larger reels just in case.

Got boxes of the pressure sensitive cover tape. I have attached some to some tape and think it should work well.

We also got a bundle of 7" reels, they were packed very pretty. This is likely how your dies arrive if you order bare dies.

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message-1453302454245654538

2025-12-24T08:25:06.146+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

We also got the tape, it's 12mm wide and seems to be very nice.
I have a few chips from the old GF run and they seem to fit well!

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message-1453315301734219776

2025-12-24T09:16:09.226+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

But did you find any wire bonder that takes die on reels ?
Granted I only talked to a few, but they all wanted gel packs basically.
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message-1453320709303435405

2025-12-24T09:37:38.491+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@tnt - if they are only bonding like 10 or 100 gel packs work, but when it gets to 1,000 units things change a bit.

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message-1453321127311966249

2025-12-24T09:39:18.152+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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Content

What is that last fan looking picture?
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message-1453321509081972750

2025-12-24T09:40:49.173+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

2 reels worth of the carrier tape came on paper 13" reels. It was just the look at it from the side.
Thought it looked neat

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message-1453321535166353529

2025-12-24T09:40:55.392+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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Content

It also depends on where in the production pipeline they are doing the wire bonding. If they do the glueing with more typical PNP style machines, then tape works pretty well.
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message-1453321744512450680

2025-12-24T09:41:45.304+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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Oh, you're looking through a hole in the paper reel side.

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message-1453321801605316651

2025-12-24T09:41:58.916+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Yeah, I've been hoping whatever we do, there's a panel that has 40+ dies. I have to imagine they can work with tape as it's a pcb?
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2025-12-24T09:44:48.347+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

At the high end they pick the dies directly from the diced wafer.
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2025-12-24T09:45:39.79+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

When there aren't 40 different projects at once 😜
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2025-12-24T10:05:46.429+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

Yes - that is the rub 🙂
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message-1453329965662867522

2025-12-24T10:14:25.379+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

some more updates on progress.
I made all these a bit ago, but have note posted (sorry)
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message-1453329986428735590

2025-12-24T10:14:30.33+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

## Tape & Reel Mechanisms

The goal is to support at least 40 tape-and-reel mechanisms, with the ability to add more in the future (including half-width or other variants). To keep things flexible and manageable, I’m avoiding putting actuators on each mechanism. Instead, the plan is to use a base-mounted actuator that can drive each unit as needed.

Since we don’t yet know how many parts each feeder will need to hold, I’m standardizing on 13" reels so we can handle just about any reasonable tape quantity in one setup.

With 40 feeders, setup time matters. Even one minute per reel turns into an hour very quickly, so minimizing loading effort is an important design consideration.
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message-1453330332840624158

2025-12-24T10:15:52.921+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

## V1: Lever Pusher

This design is based on a lever-and-spring-finger mechanism I’ve used successfully in SMT feeders.

While it works well there, I’m concerned it may not have enough grip for a tape-and-reel machine. In addition to moving the tape, it has to deal with cover tape forces and the take-up reel. Additionally as these tapes will be used by others after we're done, we can't have any damage to the tape.

I built a simple prototype mainly to check fit and get a feel for how it behaves in the real world.

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2025-12-24T10:17:14.073+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

## V2: Ratcheting Mechanism

This version uses a toothed wheel to drive the tape, acting like a ratchet. A spring-loaded drive pushes it forward, and reverse teeth prevent it from backing up on the return stroke.

The current prototypes are very rough and made from inexpensive sheet material, chosen mainly because it’s fast and cheap for early testing (referred to by @Tim 'mithro' Ansell  as “nasty fuzzy particle board stuff” 😂 ).

One issue I’ve noticed is that the drive gear may be a bit small, creating a tighter bend radius than I’d like. That’s something to refine.

So far, this design feels the most promising in terms of grip and overall robustness.

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message-1453330901558886470

2025-12-24T10:18:08.514+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

## V3: All-Gear Design

I also explored an all-gear approach, but this is the least appealing option. Keeping everything aligned and properly indexed would add a lot of complexity, and it doesn’t seem worth the effort compared to the other designs. The feed gear is too big and more.

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2025-12-27T02:42:37.614+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Hey @Leo Moser (mole99)
Hope you had a nice holiday.
I made some drawings to get quotes on wafer dicing.
Can you verify that my dimensions line up with what we're doing.
Page 3 is likely what is most important for you.

Thanks
edit: add link to drawings https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1419841819138854993/1452866337335410698
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2025-12-27T05:10:25.566+00:00 — GitHub

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message-1454341922326843432

2025-12-27T05:15:34.649+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Discord compresses images a lot.
Link to full res [image](https://raw.githubusercontent.com/evezor/waferspace_die_sorter/afcb28c2b7aa59f7f469da0f41240433ff318146/helper_scripts/waferspace_run1_test.svg)

This now also exports a csv with reticle data and row/col
```csv
X ,Y ,RETICLE_SHOT, COL|ROW
-94.276,-12.092,S-4_-1,C8R2
-94.276,-6.998,S-4_-1,C8R3
-94.276,-3.171,S-4_-1,C8R4
-94.276,-0.94,S-4_-1,C8R5
-94.276,2.535,S-4_0,C8R0
-94.276,7.629,S-4_0,C8R1
-94.276,12.723,S-4_0,C8R2
```

I have been going through in my mind how I want to actually pick these.
I think I'm leaning towards `project x project` as apposed to `reticle x reticle` or rows, or cols.

Is anyone even interested in getting info on whatwafer/where their dies come from? Not sure how possible it even would be.

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2025-12-27T05:19:18.531+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

@Leo Moser (mole99) or @Tim 'mithro' Ansell
Can I get these files that were used in the [stitcher](https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher)
tilemap.csv
manifest.csv

Might be nice to just unify some of this

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2025-12-27T13:32:13.122+00:00 — GitHub

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message-1454467207588221220

2025-12-27T13:33:24.983+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

add some more helper scripts,
Most notably a label maker so we can label reels for shipping and/or other downstream services

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2025-12-27T14:19:25.642+00:00 — GitHub

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message-1454479633742434417

2025-12-27T14:22:47.609+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

bare bones pick and place feature added.
I will be generating a few utilities to aid in this, like a mapper for the tape&reel machines and more.

Not a whole lot to look at in my viewer lol. So many paths

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message-1454839507227644137

2025-12-28T14:12:48.134+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

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@Andrew Wingate I hope you had nice holidays too.

I had a look at page 3 of the doc, but I'm not sure how you arrived at the numbers of 0, 4, 8mm etc.

The die dimensions are 3932um by 5122um as specified here: https://github.com/wafer-space/reticle-stitcher/blob/105a0e45197eaa245cb68fc87eff127567c4bef6/reticle_stitcher.py#L25

It seems that you specified the raw project dimensions without the sealring on page 4.

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message-1454839627469947041

2025-12-28T14:13:16.802+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

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It is probably best to send you the stitched reticle so that you can take any measurements you need.
I can also share the tilemap and manifest CSV files with you.

However, not all of the designs on wafer.space are open source, some are proprietary. Therefore, I cannot share the complete reticle here.

If you could share your email, I can send you all the files.
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2025-12-29T00:41:59.884+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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> I had a look at page 3 of the doc, but I'm not sure how you arrived at the numbers of 0, 4, 8mm etc.
The original dimensions I was given were 3.88mm x 5.07mm
The original reticle size was 32mm x 26mm
Divide that into the 40 original slots that gives 4mm x 5.2mm as the absolute die size
Given the amount of cuts, this leaves 0.125mm for saw kerf and whatever.

I'm digging through all this as I'm writing this. So what you're telling me is that I never actually had the real size if the dies and the tape we just got wasn't made for the correct dimensions, correct?

I think the part the dicing house cares about the most would be the drawing on page 3 and what I posted here.
These are the centerlines for where the saw cuts. We kindof get whatever is left after that (although we may get to choose some different blade thicknesses.) Those numbers should be accurate correct?

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message-1455154784444350598

2025-12-29T11:05:36.08+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I made another revision of the second carrier tape indexing mechanism.
I have the specific bearings on order and they should arrive in a couple days, but so far, I think I really like how this is turning out.
Should be fairly trivial to add a pushbutton of sorts to do the indexing.

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2025-12-29T20:04:08.828+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

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Started a thread.
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message-1455961882669351196

2025-12-31T16:32:43.292+00:00 — GitHub

Content

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message-1455962154887938058

2025-12-31T16:33:48.194+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I don't think there's really anything that can be shared with this one, but reticle data from wafer.space can now be parsed and put into the stream.
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message-1458985503520194570

2026-01-09T00:47:30.679+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - Bad news -- myself and @Leo Moser (mole99) got to see the mask GDS that GF is sending off to be manufactured and the layout didn't quite match what we expected.

We are now less convinced we know the right layout for how things will look on the wafer.

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message-1458985996346720363

2026-01-09T00:49:28.178+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Alright. The overall die sizes should be accurate per https://mithro.github.io/gf180mcu-project-template/
Their exact placement within the the larger 32x26 pattern should not be a problem.
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message-1459086377466724479

2026-01-09T07:28:20.902+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

@Tim 'mithro' Ansell So that means it's all been accepted for fabrication now ?
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message-1459088661025919080

2026-01-09T07:37:25.345+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

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We still need to make a proper announcement, but let's say a cautious yes :)

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message-1459090786896318529

2026-01-09T07:45:52.192+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

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We had expected the total reticle size to be 3.2x2.6 as it was back at Efabless. This would have left a 1 mm margin on all sides of our 3.0 x 2.4 mm design. However, the margin was much smaller than this (the test structures don't occupy much area).

Thus, it is not clear whether there is some spacing between the reticle shots to match the 3.2x2.6 size, or if there is no gap between the shots. Given the density rules, I assume there will be no gap.
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message-1459090939346813020

2026-01-09T07:46:28.539+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

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The die sizes are rounded to two decimal places on this website. You can find the correct die size for the 1x1 slot here: https://github.com/wafer-space/gf180mcu-project-template/blob/01d1540414fefce2d3c8fca2086c425688fe389a/librelane/slots/slot_1x1.yaml#L5
And all of the other slots: https://github.com/wafer-space/gf180mcu-project-template/tree/main/librelane/slots
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message-1459092013575180441

2026-01-09T07:50:44.655+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

I thought you were the one gluing all the designs together into a single GDS ?
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message-1459096651070308394

2026-01-09T08:09:10.32+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

Yes, for our purposes, we are. That's the 3.0cmx2.4cm "reticle" layout. I'll post the final layout soon after I have obfuscated the proprietary projects.

However, we don't have access to the SLM (Scribe Line Monitor) Etest and reliability test patterns. These are normally placed inbetween the scribe lines of the designs.

So in our case, these structures will be placed around our 3.0x2.4 layout. That's why we were told that our reticle size is 3.0x2.4 instead of the 3.2x2.6 that Efabless had available. (Efabless did not assemble the reticle, but GF did it for them.)
As it turns the SLM structures don't occupy that much area, which makes sense given that they are normally placed inbetween the scribe lines. Thus the final reticle size is less than 3.2x2.6.

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message-1459255076706320623

2026-01-09T18:38:41.935+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

Yes @Leo Moser (mole99) I should have been more specific.
The exact placement of *our_reticle* within the *gf_reticle* is going to be whatever it is.
The spacing from die center to center on *our_reticle* is what I've been asking should be what I have drawn
Note these numbers are not rounded

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message-1459497075677859965

2026-01-10T10:40:18.986+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Reply/reference

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Hi Andrew, did you see my comment here: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1454997849543802971/1455290401886834739
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message-1460406593328775209

2026-01-12T22:54:24.892+00:00 — GitHub

Content

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message-1462753406429954131

2026-01-19T10:19:48.737+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Got some more revisions on the tape feeder mechanism.
I'm pretty happy with how well it works!

Also bonus, toolless cover tape tensioner/holder 🙂

-# There's more designed, but I have not fabricated any of them yet. more coming soon

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message-1463050794486992916

2026-01-20T06:01:31.575+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - Cool!

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message-1463051551638814722

2026-01-20T06:04:32.094+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - You shared a circle design thingy...
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message-1463054126366720073

2026-01-20T06:14:45.957+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Yeah, so. I was a little embarrassed to share such raw stuff. @asic destroyer may understand a bit 😜

When I design, I usually like to do things and learn about the design space. Lot's and lots of terrible things that are then used to validate small ideas and concepts.
Breadth first search 🙂

So this was one of the first designs and it uses 13" reels. I have decided they are too big and have since retooled for 7" reels. Quite a few iterations

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message-1463054362921406567

2026-01-20T06:15:42.356+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

I was wondering why that picture had all the reels in a circle rather than a square?
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message-1463055238675173550

2026-01-20T06:19:11.152+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The original outline for this project called for 40 unique projects to be sorted.
Since that time it seems we are wanting to have 1/2 and maybe 1/4 sizes which explodes the number of reels that we need.
Just a reticle like the one shown is already 56 unique projects.
@Tim 'mithro' Ansell is asking about these pictures, where  I was taking these reels and attempting to see how many I could squeeze into the available footprint.
Here we have 60reels. For a lot of reasons I don't think this is a viable route to continue, but I'll keep posting

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message-1463061131492069528

2026-01-20T06:42:36.109+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - Yeah I was wondering why that was layed out in a circle rather than 3 sides of a rectangle?
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message-1463409903845511228

2026-01-21T05:48:29.918+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Reply/reference

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Content

these look great! Really nifty nice mechanism you've cooked up 🙂

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message-1463410739569098975

2026-01-21T05:51:49.17+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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That compliment coming from someone who has made really awesome mechanisms, that means a whole lot.
Thank you!

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message-1463411086513537078

2026-01-21T05:53:11.888+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

gonna be really neat seeing the final build chugging away sorting dies
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message-1463411263903371513

2026-01-21T05:53:54.181+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Yes! Many 10s of thousands of dies
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message-1463854295211573299

2026-01-22T11:14:21.076+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

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I sincerely hope you don't have a die mixup situation where you have to manually sort a big pile of dies!
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message-1463856685188907097

2026-01-22T11:23:50.891+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

Question: why was a QR code used to mark each die with its ID rather than a standard barcode, which might be easier to read since its 1D?
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message-1463859765326385349

2026-01-22T11:36:05.253+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Crazy how long ago all those decisions seem. From what I remember there were a number of reasons.
First was just that the original character code was too hard to resolve with low quality optics, so something bigger was wanted.
Second was just to have something that was easily machine readable from any orientation.
We also wanted this to double as a macro pin1 designator.
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message-1463860940264181821

2026-01-22T11:40:45.38+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Lol, I don't want to think about that 😜 From what I'm learning about everything, it's doubtful that would be a realistic scenario.

That said; if there was a giant pile, it would be an interesting CS type problem with QR codes and everything @Tholin was just mentioning.
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message-1463861138914672733

2026-01-22T11:41:32.742+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

then you have to make another machine that can load the dies and identify them through a microscope

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message-1463867302955974758

2026-01-22T12:06:02.364+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

Reminds me when I dropped a tray of mpw1 wlcsp on the floor ... and then spent like an hour finding them all ...

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message-1463883977814179863

2026-01-22T13:12:17.96+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

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yeah, I dropped one of those little trays and it was very hard getting them back inside with the right orientation
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message-1463883994881064971

2026-01-22T13:12:22.029+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

not on the floor luckily
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message-1463907491887976634

2026-01-22T14:45:44.152+00:00 — Lofty (@ravenslofty)

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space, as I understand it :p
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message-1465459075947958549

2026-01-26T21:31:10.619+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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I believe @Leo Moser (mole99) made the call about QRcode ID?
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message-1465734979568009331

2026-01-27T15:47:31.168+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

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Yes, you can search the server for "qrcode" to find discussions about it.
It fits the corner space well, has markers for the orientation and redundancy in the encoding.
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message-1465823240646824213

2026-01-27T21:38:14.249+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

I'm not sure if it is working, but I was also trying to get a searchable public archive of the discord @ https://discord.wafer.space/

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message-1467276906155085927

2026-01-31T21:54:35.114+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I'll share some more pictures before our meeting that starts in a few

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message-1472134883278192701

2026-02-14T07:38:27.117+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Just got the test sliced wafers in today.
It's hard to see, but there's a lot of dies on there

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message-1472136008312029331

2026-02-14T07:42:55.346+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

My printer has been trudging away making parts. The gripper is going to be how the maching grabs each feeder when it's that feeder's turn. It's used for stability and location purposes. More coming on that soon

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message-1472136517806723144

2026-02-14T07:44:56.819+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Also have the feeders more or less designed. Just a few last minor changes and I think we can start rocking on those. I've got some video, but discord doesn't like large files.

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message-1472645319832633537

2026-02-15T17:26:44.675+00:00 — asic destroyer (@logic_destroyer)

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Content

wafers from run 1?
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message-1472646786756645136

2026-02-15T17:32:34.417+00:00 — urish

Content

nope, run 1 hasn't returned yet

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message-1472735769406865590

2026-02-15T23:26:09.534+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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We got some blank wafers diced so that Andrew can verify the die sorting machine.

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message-1472923095881879623

2026-02-16T11:50:31.646+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

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message-1472923241801842793

2026-02-16T11:51:06.436+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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message-1473440024979575016

2026-02-17T22:04:37.147+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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What is the light blue circle thing?
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message-1473440128113578085

2026-02-17T22:05:01.736+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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In that first picture. I know its the reel in the second one....
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message-1473441112608739471

2026-02-17T22:08:56.458+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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I'm thinking of having a carousel that all the feeders are hanging on.
It spins around to index. This way also in the future we could just add another for faster/more die support
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message-1473441203260489800

2026-02-17T22:09:18.071+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I'll have much more to show on Wed probably
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message-1473563346849628376

2026-02-18T06:14:39.372+00:00 — carlfk

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message-1473568519076712552

2026-02-18T06:35:12.527+00:00 — carlfk

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2026-02-18T06:43:53.696+00:00 — carlfk

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2026-02-18T06:47:12.513+00:00 — carlfk

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message-1474833714562203811

2026-02-21T18:22:38.637+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Hey all,
I've got a number of components on order so we'll see how things go when I get them.
A few small changes, I think the chandelier will be direct driven, I have a motor on the way.

I made the first rev chandelier carousel thing. There's quite a lot of things I don't like, but overall I'm liking the direction.
I have made some changes to the feeders as there wasn't room for the toolhead with the cover tape where it was, so moved it back futher.
Probably a lot more, but that's what I have in my mind at the moment.

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2026-02-21T22:31:34.01+00:00 — asic destroyer (@logic_destroyer)

Content

crazy
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2026-02-26T04:20:30.119+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I have been trying to figure the best way to get the dies off the tape and a friend shared this video with me.
It seems I'm going to need to make a thing that pokes from the bottom afterall.
https://youtu.be/oeSME_ZADe4?si=8j41BsaHpf3qu-0T&t=30

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2026-03-01T08:25:34.46+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

So I think I'm happy enough with this design.
Again, it seems we need to have a thing on the bottom that pushes up the die from the bottom off the tape.
It also has a vacuum to keep the tape pulled down while it pushes up.
It's actuated by a stepper motor with some swash plates.

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2026-03-06T04:41:40.142+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Lots and lots of printing. I am hoping to cut the real carousel and feeder backs tomorrow and assemble in the next few days

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2026-03-06T04:42:38.643+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

made the vacuum pusher thing that pokes the dies off the tape today. I think it works pretty well (it's not complicated)

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2026-03-06T04:43:12.787+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

more to come very soon
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2026-03-07T20:59:43.429+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - I think I feel a conference talk in the making here.

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2026-03-07T21:00:12.568+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

Sure, when?

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2026-03-07T21:00:43.393+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - Did Crowd Supply reach out about Teardown?
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2026-03-07T21:00:52.209+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

talk.. not *call* haha yeah me too.
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2026-03-07T21:01:05.33+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

No word yet
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message-1479947049255567452

2026-03-07T21:01:12.629+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - Also maybe Latch Up? https://fossi-foundation.org/latch-up/2026

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2026-03-07T21:01:39.887+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

that's like the day I get home lol

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2026-03-14T20:43:26.245+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

Content

really fun to see this all come together, cheers for sharing all the designs and steps along the way!

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2026-03-14T22:03:05.954+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - I think we ended up with it being 500 die per reel? So 1,000 die is two reels? Is that correct?
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message-1482503129747423232

2026-03-14T22:18:09.708+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

I think when I did my original count I was using neopixels as the reference. These dies are much shorter so fit significantly more on the reel.
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message-1482841853094006914

2026-03-15T20:44:07.647+00:00 — nmz787

Content

Do these dies get tested after dicing, so you can bin marginal/excellent performance or discard outright bad ones?
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message-1482857967274692740

2026-03-15T21:48:09.567+00:00 — Lofty (@ravenslofty)

Reply/reference

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I'm pretty sure the answer is "no", because I think die-testing is something very specific to each project

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message-1482858070420754633

2026-03-15T21:48:34.159+00:00 — nmz787

Content

Nothing basic even, like edge damage monitor?
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message-1482858146924859412

2026-03-15T21:48:52.399+00:00 — nmz787

Content

(perimeter resistor that staircases up and down through all metal layers)
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message-1482858221155913780

2026-03-15T21:49:10.097+00:00 — Lofty (@ravenslofty)

Content

I don't think so
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message-1486947881268023336

2026-03-27T04:40:01.05+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Hey all, sorry for not making many posts, been busy building.

First up, we have a Ton of feeders.
When you say, oh yeah, it's just 40, but time adds up fast when there are that many. There's about 2k components in the BOM for all these.

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message-1486948495306002542

2026-03-27T04:42:27.448+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

And for the machine,
It's actually more like 2 machines, one below with the suction pusher thing that releases the dies from the tape (it's pretty sticky)
and another from above that will pick and place the dies.
There's the carousel over to the right that will hold 40 feeders and rotates to index each feeder.
-# please excuse the mess

More coming very soon

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message-1486997022165958696

2026-03-27T07:55:17.153+00:00 — Brian Swetland (@dnaltews)

Content

I hope there's video of this all operating once it's complete

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message-1487680920063316089

2026-03-29T05:12:51.118+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - Random question, does the machine pick all dies for a given slot first and then all for the next slot, or does it pick all dies in a reticle shot?
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message-1487681123936108687

2026-03-29T05:13:39.725+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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I'm having it go slot by slot as changing feeders is an expensive (in time) operation
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message-1487681338961035345

2026-03-29T05:14:30.991+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Andrew Wingate - With the rotation changing thingy for the feeders, I guessed that was how it worked.

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message-1487849574944084099

2026-03-29T16:23:01.575+00:00 — nmz787

Content

@Andrew Wingate do you plan to integrate any microprobes for inline testing? A simple perimeter resistor that hugs the seal ring can tell a lot about the health of the die (has dicing cracked it, how far outside of the standard deviation is the resistance which can extend to circuit timing skew, or gross shorts/opens). You'd need a kelvin connection (four terminals).
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message-1487894368491933696

2026-03-29T19:21:01.189+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

There will be no testing on individual dies as they are all different and that would be very difficult.

We are making some test boards for a select couple dies that will be used to prove the wirebonding.
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message-1487894527468634112

2026-03-29T19:21:39.092+00:00 — nmz787

Content

I thought the dies from waferspace are all identical
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message-1487894637560594533

2026-03-29T19:22:05.34+00:00 — nmz787

Content

from a given wafer
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message-1487894773699182613

2026-03-29T19:22:37.798+00:00 — nmz787

Content

4 probes and an ohmmeter is too difficult?
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message-1487894822655229962

2026-03-29T19:22:49.47+00:00 — nmz787

Content

sort test has been done for 50 years
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message-1487894932348731462

2026-03-29T19:23:15.623+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

Every project is unique.
Most projects share the same pad ring (power and IO locations)
All projects share the same wirebonding pattern* (not perfectly true, but true enough for this argument)
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message-1487895098573197462

2026-03-29T19:23:55.254+00:00 — nmz787

Content

maybe I am confusing tinytapeout dies
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message-1487895149835980860

2026-03-29T19:24:07.476+00:00 — nmz787

Content

but in any case, "probe cards"
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message-1487895230366617731

2026-03-29T19:24:26.676+00:00 — nmz787

Content

or wafer bonding style microprobes
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message-1487895234900918415

2026-03-29T19:24:27.757+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

All these processes are still very new, we're creating them as we go.
This is a good idea and will bring it up with the bonding house, but for this run most everything is still experimental.
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message-1487895254198915264

2026-03-29T19:24:32.358+00:00 — nmz787

Content

all very automatable
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message-1487895358871699497

2026-03-29T19:24:57.314+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

automatability does not mean no work and no cost
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message-1487895405097128088

2026-03-29T19:25:08.335+00:00 — nmz787

Content

right, just better yield to customers
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message-1487895442774691850

2026-03-29T19:25:17.318+00:00 — nmz787

Content

idk what the cost savings would be to skip bonding bad dies
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message-1487895474097881188

2026-03-29T19:25:24.786+00:00 — nmz787

Content

vs development cost of inline test
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message-1487895807951896817

2026-03-29T19:26:44.383+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

This is a very proven node (GF180MCU) we are not anticipating many bad dies.
Additionally as these are all on mezzanine connectors you are free to make your own test motherboards and do any number of tests before you attach them to something else.
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message-1487896047941451907

2026-03-29T19:27:41.601+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Content

not that much
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message-1487896061681860660

2026-03-29T19:27:44.877+00:00 — nmz787

Content

oh, I thought the die-sorter was for pre-bonding
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message-1487896347838513284

2026-03-29T19:28:53.102+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I understand your argument more now.
No, the sorter is only for taking dies from the diced wafer and putting them into their own SMT reels.
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message-1487896508077707346

2026-03-29T19:29:31.306+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

From there, some only requested the bare dies and they will wirebond (or whatever they like) themselves
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message-1487896916338544951

2026-03-29T19:31:08.643+00:00 — nmz787

Reply/reference

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Content

is gf also dicing? the cracks happen at that stage, not all yield issues emanate from the foundry
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message-1487897318228361336

2026-03-29T19:32:44.461+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

No, there is a 3rd party that will be dicing
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message-1487897373186326639

2026-03-29T19:32:57.564+00:00 — nmz787

Content

yeah, that's my concern
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message-1487897530183192747

2026-03-29T19:33:34.995+00:00 — nmz787

Content

not testing that they haven't cracked the die is... well... less guarantee for the customer
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message-1487897593743671397

2026-03-29T19:33:50.149+00:00 — nmz787

Content

maybe inline testing could be an addon service for later

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message-1487897613520080978

2026-03-29T19:33:54.864+00:00 — nmz787

Content

thanks for the info

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message-1487950285971132450

2026-03-29T23:03:12.955+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@nmz787 - The general theory is that at this price the custom is responsible for testing things themselves when they get the parts.
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message-1488214939230404619

2026-03-30T16:34:51.209+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

afaik, bond pads can get corroded over time - is there a plan to ship them sealed with the little absorbent packets?
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message-1488214989771903068

2026-03-30T16:35:03.259+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

I should take a look at some of the Efabless bare dies and see if I can see anything
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message-1488215113440821279

2026-03-30T16:35:32.744+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

I hope I still have some at my office
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message-1488362423454007397

2026-03-31T02:20:54.188+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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I have plenty floating around that have not been stored in any type of good way.
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message-1488362729176694854

2026-03-31T02:22:07.078+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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The die will be in sealed reels. I'll probably be shipping the reels in a the standard vacuum sealed bags you get from places like Mousers/Digikey
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message-1488521280914456748

2026-03-31T12:52:08.758+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

I took a look at some old dies from Efabless (~3 years old, in waffle packs, no seal, no dessicant) and couldn't see any damage or oxidation on the pads

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message-1488699912169324665

2026-04-01T00:41:57.768+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Matt Venn - I think it is one of those things where it reduces reliability by like 2% which is bad for 100k units but not noticable for these small runs
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message-1491031637759230003

2026-04-07T11:07:24.47+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The robot has arrived in Singapore!!

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message-1491455809572311121

2026-04-08T15:12:54.911+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

I still can't quite believe you're actually doing this!
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message-1491456238528102603

2026-04-08T15:14:37.182+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

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Yeah, I want to see that thing running ...
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message-1491456331725537351

2026-04-08T15:14:59.402+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

@Andrew Wingate did you run it on a dummy diced wafer already ?
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message-1491456344681615504

2026-04-08T15:15:02.491+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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Do we have a choice?
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message-1491456442132336880

2026-04-08T15:15:25.725+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Not fully, should be getting things going tomorrow
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message-1491456603025834096

2026-04-08T15:16:04.085+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Reply/reference

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well, yeah, you could use a wafer dicing and packaging service
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message-1491456648555008204

2026-04-08T15:16:14.94+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Had some shipping casualties

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message-1491456718847082647

2026-04-08T15:16:31.699+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

did you bring a spare 3d printer?
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message-1491457021600469142

2026-04-08T15:17:43.881+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

No, we found this local service and they were very friendly and quick. They printed for us
https://www.additiveinn.com/services

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message-1491598257720262737

2026-04-09T00:38:57.196+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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Content

FWIW - No sorting house is able to deal with 50 wafers with 40 bins to sort things into. The industry is set up to either deal with 1 wafer and 40 bins or >1,000 wafers with at most 10 bins.
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message-1491598480454582424

2026-04-09T00:39:50.3+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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Basically the machines they use have at *most* 10 bins to sort things into to, because who would be silly enough to need more than that 😛
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message-1491598586042126376

2026-04-09T00:40:15.474+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

So the way they sort 1 wafer into 40 bins is that they program the tool 4 times.
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message-1491598880104513687

2026-04-09T00:41:25.584+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

And as they need to pick a whole wafer before moving onto the next wafer, when doing multiple wafers they would have to reprogram the machine 4 times for every wafer. And the programming / setup of the machine can take hours, even though the pick itself can take only minutes.
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message-1491599050288398408

2026-04-09T00:42:06.159+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Content

@Matt Venn - All the quotes for sorting 40 bins come out to be more per wafer than the silicon manufacturing!

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message-1491671794418061383

2026-04-09T05:31:09.711+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

I'm surprised efabless didn't hit this, weren't they were doing multiple wafers into 40 ?
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message-1491700987717750826

2026-04-09T07:27:09.936+00:00 — bailey (@bailey8889)

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Does Efabless/ChipFoundry's use of a single pad frame (same for caravel, caravan, and openframe) make things easier?
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message-1491702003741626418

2026-04-09T07:31:12.175+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

Not sure how that would help. Here the reticle is also sliced into die of mostly the same size ( there is the "border ones" which are smaller but all the other are the same ).
I don't understand why they can't program the machine to pick up 10 dies, then run the 24 wafer through though. They have adheside backing right ? so you can pick some dies and then remove them and reload them later ?
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message-1491726185607069738

2026-04-09T09:07:17.581+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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I believe they are worried about the risk every time they do the mounting. I'm sure it's fine for like every 99 out of 100 attempts (or even better) but that last one has an issue and everyone is like super sue happy in this space and such.
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message-1491726682053279824

2026-04-09T09:09:15.943+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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They did a bit, it is the reason you got a smaller bunch of chips back then I would have liked and there where a whole bunch of undiced wafers from each run left over.
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2026-04-10T13:31:22.093+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

got your wafers yet?

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2026-04-11T03:19:25.433+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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Content

We have some wafers!

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2026-04-12T17:22:52.738+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

Content

How's the sorting?
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2026-04-13T02:19:52.3+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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A bit slower than hoped. The dies are harder to get off the tape than I would have thought.
We're pretty close though and need to modify the machine and code as the frames they're sitting on and the layout of the reticles are different.

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message-1493090109346807949

2026-04-13T03:27:02.341+00:00 — Brian Swetland (@dnaltews)

Content

are the Ls an artifact of the dicing process or just the first pieces you're removing?
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2026-04-13T04:36:53.65+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Just the first removed pieces. I was also thinking because these wafers are fairly tall (respectively) they may have been getting caught on the edges as well.
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2026-04-13T06:45:13.282+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

I'm surprised you're not expanding the wafer to space out the dies.
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2026-04-13T06:47:13.63+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

Something like https://www.youtube.com/shorts/USmGBEEa8OE

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2026-04-13T07:01:35.675+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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We're looking into possibly trying to make something like that.
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message-1493144501198262323

2026-04-13T07:03:10.369+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

It also seems there are many types of tape. UV will release, stretching will release, temperature will release
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2026-04-13T07:03:40.487+00:00 — Brian Swetland (@dnaltews)

Content

this is fascinating specialized gear (they've got a more extensive promo video on youtube <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S63L7-xYGDI>)
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2026-04-13T07:05:01.431+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Yeah, more things we don't have just in an apartment in Singapore 😜
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message-1493151209350103151

2026-04-13T07:29:49.717+00:00 — stuart (@saladchap)

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Do we know what kind of backing tape is on these wafers?

Whenever I've seen division done (manually) the tape has been stretched as @tnt 's video example above shows
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2026-04-13T07:30:12.17+00:00 — stuart (@saladchap)

Content

Also any videos of the robot in action?
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2026-04-13T07:30:43.466+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Reply/reference

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We do not know what kind of tape. Also I have not made any videos

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2026-04-13T07:31:22.612+00:00 — stuart (@saladchap)

Content

Any idea who the best person is/place to ask re the tape?
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2026-04-13T07:32:41.968+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Not sure, as I understand it, we never really had much if any contact from the dicing house. It was mostly handled by the people who helped work with GF
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message-1493231032449892434

2026-04-13T12:47:01.027+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

For those curious, this is how the whole wafer is laid out and how all the projects tile across it.
There is a band that we were unable to use as GF used it for their own purposes. That is the blank spot.
Also not sure why this isn't rendering. I will also post a low res version that should show

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message-1493231251488768182

2026-04-13T12:47:53.25+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Greyed out areas are places that could fit a few projects,  but GF didn't even make shots in those areas.
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message-1493233907301220382

2026-04-13T12:58:26.445+00:00 — urish

Content

It renders for me
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message-1493234077963391179

2026-04-13T12:59:07.134+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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wierd, it just shows as a file for me. Thanks for letting me know
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message-1493235837863854291

2026-04-13T13:06:06.727+00:00 — urish

Content

Any idea why GF didn't make shots in those areas?
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message-1493236067158069370

2026-04-13T13:07:01.395+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

No idea about a lot of things 😂
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message-1493236285555343621

2026-04-13T13:07:53.465+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The far right side has a large area with some kind of identification or othe data
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message-1493236524073095240

2026-04-13T13:08:50.332+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

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message-1493237226354769981

2026-04-13T13:11:37.769+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

Probably just too few valid dies to be worth the time.
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message-1493237335431577703

2026-04-13T13:12:03.775+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Most likely
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message-1493247124492779581

2026-04-13T13:50:57.669+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

The "band" above our reticle is actually part of it. At the time, GF gave us a fixed reticle size which is not divisible by the slot sizes (vertically).

The band is not visible in the [reticle render](https://github.com/wafer-space/ws-run1/blob/main/images/reticle_white.png), since this one is without fill in the reticle.

Here's an image of the filled reticle:
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message-1493247158357332130

2026-04-13T13:51:05.743+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

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message-1493247200095113269

2026-04-13T13:51:15.694+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

There are, however, test structures all around the reticle in very narrow band, ~5-10 times the saw street width.
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message-1493247241769582873

2026-04-13T13:51:25.63+00:00 — Leo Moser (mole99) (@mole99)

Content

After the tapeout, we were told that we could adjust the reticle size to remove the band above the reticle. This might yield a few extra dies due to additional exposures.

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message-1493864057613189241

2026-04-15T06:42:25.987+00:00 — azonenberg

Content

I'm mostly familiar with heat release tape but i would definitely try to figure out what they used
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message-1493945841675927572

2026-04-15T12:07:24.827+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

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@Andrew Wingate @Tim 'mithro' Ansell Still waiting to see a video of the die sorting robot doing its thing 😁
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message-1493946273911537754

2026-04-15T12:09:07.88+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Content

Sorting is underway. Still having a bit of trouble gettying dies off the tape.
Hopefully real soon ill take a vid

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message-1493946478270353410

2026-04-15T12:09:56.603+00:00 — Tholin (@tholin)

Content

That’s a lot of dust on that wafer. Isn’t that problematic?
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message-1493946733716312194

2026-04-15T12:10:57.506+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The wire-bonding place isn't super clean.
Also this wafer has been sitting out for days now. I hope not/don't think so
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message-1493947822548979773

2026-04-15T12:15:17.104+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

In the cob place the dies aren't out long enough to collect stuff I think. Surface definitely needs to be clean for bond to work but maybe they just blow air on it before ? ( cc @stuart )
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message-1493948062421487666

2026-04-15T12:16:14.294+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

These should be pretty easy to pick out of the reel as they'll be the first ~30 to come off
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message-1493948145485217882

2026-04-15T12:16:34.098+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The rest have been sealed in their transport carrier
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message-1494567776898257026

2026-04-17T05:18:45.739+00:00 — davidc__

Content

Random question (new to the server, just reading backlog to see what's going on) - why sort to a whole pile of tape feeders directly?

Might it be easier to pick to one long tape (in sorted order), with "padding" inserted between different runs of dies? That one long "master reel" would then be subdivided on a separate system.
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message-1494620433830641685

2026-04-17T08:48:00.13+00:00 — namibj

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you are asking a good question.
I suspect it's because they're working on multiple wafers and wouldn't want one tape per wafer but possibly multiple wafers per tape, which requires seeking or multiple wafers at once or multiple tapes at once.

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message-1494775740036812912

2026-04-17T19:05:08.015+00:00 — davidc__

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Thanks. That makes sense! I assume the COB houses wouldn't want spliced tape to feed from, so all the complexity makes sense.
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message-1495063560894681151

2026-04-18T14:08:49.855+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)

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How's them dies @Andrew Wingate ?
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message-1495064094183653376

2026-04-18T14:10:57.001+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Got a few sorted already. We're under way

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message-1495293349979226142

2026-04-19T05:21:55.842+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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message-1495303627709878393

2026-04-19T06:02:46.244+00:00 — Brian Swetland (@dnaltews)

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progress!
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message-1495384514946400338

2026-04-19T11:24:11.264+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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message-1495667990610313287

2026-04-20T06:10:37.129+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)

Content

Oh I didn't realize there was something pushing the die from below. I guess that can help with release since the wafers weren't expanded.
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message-1499225503754616955

2026-04-30T01:46:54.358+00:00 — nmz787

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message-1499249458922127470

2026-04-30T03:22:05.715+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

Reply/reference

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I'm exploring options for dicing which would allow arbitary die sizes (or even shapes) -- but so far everyone with laser dicing is either to low volume for my use case or to high volume for my use case. My use case is roughly ~50 wafers with ~1,000 die per wafer.

Most people using laser dicing are doing so to reduce the amount of silicon lost to things like scribe lines and improve the economics of very small die.
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message-1499269740391170192

2026-04-30T04:42:41.194+00:00 — BreakingTaps (@polyfractal)

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plasma dicing sounds fancy
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message-1499283932334657667

2026-04-30T05:39:04.817+00:00 — nmz787

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Content

I think it's basically DRIE
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message-1499325211919515760

2026-04-30T08:23:06.637+00:00 — namibj

Content

Oh yeah that can do TSVs might as well use it to cut slots 😄
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message-1499325875995283569

2026-04-30T08:25:44.965+00:00 — namibj

Content

> in irregular chip dicing, DRIE is used with a novel hybrid soft/hard mask to achieve sub-millimeter etching to dice silicon dies into lego-like pieces with irregular shapes.[7][8][9]
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message-1510176929263911053

2026-05-30T07:03:57.667+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

Ok, I've done some testing with tape-stretching
The 3 images, in order; are 3mm, 6mm, and 8mm stretch heights changed by changing out the material underneath.
Under any circumstance I think this is worth pursuing if only for the fact that it tightens the tape up like a drum which should help to keep the tape from tenting with the pusher from the bottom that comes and pushes the die off the tape. In addition to the clearance gained from the stretch.

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message-1510177006602686605

2026-05-30T07:04:16.106+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

All this brings us to ask whether I try to incorporate the stretcher into the holder in the machine, or if we want to get a separate machine that does the stretching.
There are stretch rings that you can buy and these are the smallest in the 10" range and the 8" ones are too small. _I am not sure why this is... but that's how it is_
Looking at the ring inside the dicing frames we have been provided, we may be able to use the professional model, but it's still unclear whether it will work with the wafers mounted to the dicing frames.
We already have pneumatics on the current machine and all this is making me think that just having them stay on the frames the entire time would be a benefit and just have the stretch happen when we clamp the frame in.
@Tim 'mithro' Ansell

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message-1510211603801309275

2026-05-30T09:21:44.721+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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I think I proposed something like in machine clamping
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message-1510362775375839414

2026-05-30T19:22:26.833+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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You did! I'm still not sure how/if I can fit it along with the motion components, but it's looking more promising
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message-1510437221889478787

2026-05-31T00:18:16.265+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)

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I think I was suggesting that something push down rather than up... I'm sure you'll figure out the best mechanism.

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message-1516284692750663703

2026-06-16T03:34:01.959+00:00 — GitHub

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message-1517382048640274613

2026-06-19T04:14:31.991+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

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Next revision of the wafer holder/ tape stretcher.
I've thought a bit about the up vs. down stretch.

They each have their own quirks
I will call this one **up**(the second image in your set), there is not a lot of room around the pusher part and homing the machine is potentially problematic.

Pushing **down** I can't quite figure a good way to
a) load a frame
b) have the desired strength without becomming too bulky

Also both have issues with fitting motion components around, but I think those can be dealt with

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message-1517382122862547024

2026-06-19T04:14:49.687+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

I will print off a few pieces tonight and see how I feel in the morning.
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message-1534811732059488276

2026-08-06T06:33:52.346+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)

Content

The new component tapes have arrived.

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message-1534931884918837323

2026-08-06T14:31:19.02+00:00 — Essen (@essen__)

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Started a thread.
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