---
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title: "#gf180mcu-opt"
slug: wsd-gf180mcu-opt-8dbe7eeb
route: /evidence/internal/gf180mcu-opt
section: reference
access: public
summary: 37 Discord messages from Internal/gf180mcu-opt/channel.md.
status: published
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md_url: /evidence/internal/gf180mcu-opt.md
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tags: [discord, wafer-space, archive]
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talk_url: /evidence/internal/gf180mcu-opt.talk.md
talk_route: /evidence/internal/gf180mcu-opt/talk
---

# #gf180mcu-opt

Category: **Internal**
Channel ID: `1361350052395618434`

Messages: **37**

## message-1361353945653448807

**2025-04-14T14:54:33.377+00:00 — Matt Venn (@mattvenn)**

- Message ID: `1361353945653448807`
- Author ID: `492702620759228416`
- Nickname: Matt Venn
- User name: mattvenn
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1361353945653448807
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
:asic_hats:
```

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---

## message-1361354912423870709

**2025-04-14T14:58:23.873+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1361354912423870709`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1361354912423870709
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
What's the `-opt` for ?
```

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## message-1361395668685553988

**2025-04-14T17:40:20.923+00:00 — mole99**

- Message ID: `1361395668685553988`
- Author ID: `323371864074485771`
- Nickname: mole99
- User name: mole99
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1361395668685553988
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
Cost optimization I assume if it is about the metal layer reduction
```

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## message-1362101660100333841

**2025-04-16T16:25:42.393+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1362101660100333841`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
- Nickname: Tim 'mithro' Ansell
- User name: mithro_
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1362101660100333841
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
Yes
```

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---

## message-1362101866736910381

**2025-04-16T16:26:31.659+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1362101866736910381`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
- Nickname: Tim 'mithro' Ansell
- User name: mithro_
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1362101866736910381
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uf6xGZHpuA_G4iyAvxDwEENMjPBAf0Q16D0c8F0lbDQ/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.vv35m449hl9p
```

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---

## message-1362125440537460896

**2025-04-16T18:00:12.091+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1362125440537460896`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1362125440537460896
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
@Tim 'mithro' Ansell Don't have access. Sent request 🙂
```

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---

## message-1362126641463300357

**2025-04-16T18:04:58.414+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1362126641463300357`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1362126641463300357
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
Which metal stackup would we get ?
```

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## message-1362129933694140487

**2025-04-16T18:18:03.343+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1362129933694140487`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
- Nickname: Tim 'mithro' Ansell
- User name: mithro_
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1362129933694140487
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
@tnt - TBD - I would like to get us to three metal layers but I know it will be a headache for TinyTapeout
```

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## message-1362130070470263047

**2025-04-16T18:18:35.953+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1362130070470263047`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1362130070470263047
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
That's just not doable.
```

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## message-1362130222425837649

**2025-04-16T18:19:12.182+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1362130222425837649`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1362130222425837649
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
The standard cell need 1 metal layer pretty much for their exclusive use. TT need a metal layer for its exclusive use.
```

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## message-1362130780393967747

**2025-04-16T18:21:25.212+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1362130780393967747`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1362130780393967747
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
So the only way to do routing would basically be a channel router but (1) AFAIK that's not supported by the tooling and (2) this would make the logic density ridiculously low. gf180 was already not the greatest logic density because we only had 5v standard cell but limited to channel routing, it would easily divide it by 2 (and that's optimistic).
```

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## message-1362974275602088099

**2025-04-19T02:13:10.141+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1362974275602088099`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
- Nickname: Tim 'mithro' Ansell
- User name: mithro_
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- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
@tnt - I'd like to eventually get some actual numbers and results - the "default option" is the exact same configuration at GFMPW-0 / GFMPW-1
```

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## message-1363060565110554715

**2025-04-19T07:56:03.163+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363060565110554715`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
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- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363060565110554715
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
Thing is it depends what you want to do ... for just pure basic digital designs, sure you can get rid of a lot of the stuff ... but to me that's also makes the process boring and not interesting. I can create full digital designs in a FPGA just fine so meh 🤷
The interesting part is analog/mixed-signal design and that's were those weird things like native Vt, deep-nwells, or the efuse stuff because they're the "fun bits" to play with.
That's just my 2ct at least.
```

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## message-1363065518055096380

**2025-04-19T08:15:44.037+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363065518055096380`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363065518055096380
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
For TT itself, as stated above, you couldn't just "port" whatever we have now to 3 metal, that just wouldn't work out. You could imagine something TT-like, but you'd basically be starting from scratch since you'd have to using comb power routing and that completely change the way you need to combine stuff and also limits layout option (like, you couldn't do combining of tile area vertically like we do now since that'd be cutting power rails ...).

To realistically port the current "architecture" you'd need 4 metal layers, ( 1 for local interconnect of standard cells, 2 for XY routing, 1 for top level PDN for TT ) with the top one being thick metal ( say 30KA ).

And if you stick with 3 metal, you also have a balance to find for the TopMetal. Because on one hand you ideally want it to be thin, because it's a routing layer, you need to have a relatively fine grid. But on the other, it's your sole layer for PDN so you want its sheet resistance to be low so you don't need rails that are unpractically wide ...
11KA is the thickest option that still has a realistic pitch to use as signal routing and that's 40 mOhms/sq ( ~ 30% higher than in sky130 top metal ).
```

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## message-1363259961672597504

**2025-04-19T21:08:23.008+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

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@tnt - Why did you run the PDN over the top of the designs rather than down channels between each tile?
```

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---

## message-1363260059236306974

**2025-04-19T21:08:46.269+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1363260059236306974`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
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**Content**

```text
@tnt - Trying to get as many projects onto one shuttle as possible?
```

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---

## message-1363261251232469265

**2025-04-19T21:13:30.463+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1363261251232469265`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
- Nickname: Tim 'mithro' Ansell
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**Content**

```text
@tnt - Also, does that mean TinyTapeout designs can't use Metal 5?
```

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---

## message-1363261262464680146

**2025-04-19T21:13:33.141+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363261262464680146`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363261262464680146
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
Several reason :
(1) It'd be wasting space between tiles
(2) Powering only from one side isn't great for IR drop for large tiles. We actually have a minimum of 2 rails going over each tile. More for larger tiles.
(3) We allow to combine multiple tiles, if you have something running between them, you can't do that because it would cut your power rail ... shutting down power to other projects on the same row.
(4) We power gate each project. That's a lot of different "power domains" (think like 500 different power domains on a tiny chip !) so our PDN routing takes quite a bit of space and even though we pretty much fill the entire thick top metal (at least as much as density allows), we still end up with PDN impedance higher than I'd like. So imagine using the space between tiles, we'd need quite the area ...
```

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---

## message-1363261451162226790

**2025-04-19T21:14:18.13+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363261451162226790`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363261451162226790
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
And yes, on sky130 tiny tapeout designs can't use `Metal5`. And on IHP they can't use `TopMetal2`
```

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---

## message-1363261650626547804

**2025-04-19T21:15:05.686+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1363261650626547804`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
- Nickname: Tim 'mithro' Ansell
- User name: mithro_
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363261650626547804
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
BTW Have you written this up somewhere?
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1363261901408043039

**2025-04-19T21:16:05.477+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363261901408043039`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363261901408043039
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
The only case were people wanted to use it is to make inductors but :
* Inductors are impractically large anyway, given the cost of a tile, for the price you'd need to pay to put your inductor you might as well have paid for a ChipIgnite-mini slot ...
* The IO speed wouldn't allow you any kind of RF frequency interface
So it wasn't all that much of an issue ...
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1363262308712972320

**2025-04-19T21:17:42.586+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363262308712972320`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363262308712972320
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
Written what up ?
The whole TT code is public and people can have a look if they choose to. The final GDS of each shuttle is published and people are free to lookup how things are assembled.
There was also some video from Matt about the TT organization and why some of the choices were made.
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1363263096176640151

**2025-04-19T21:20:50.332+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1363263096176640151`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
- Nickname: Tim 'mithro' Ansell
- User name: mithro_
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363263096176640151
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
@tnt - Do you mean this video series -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFz6XTZvfB4 ?
```

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<summary>Embeds data</summary>

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    "description": "https://github.com/TinyTapeout/tt-multiplexer\nhttps://tinytapeout.com/\n\n1st interview: https://youtu.be/30emLKLpq50\n2nd interview: https://youtu.be/cCbTyfewaCw\n\n00:00 Intro \n01:39 OpenLane 2 \n04:07 Custom routing \n11:09 Custom standard cell placement \n12:21 Automatic placement of user projects \n15:30 IO placement \n16:28 Space efficiency \n18:45 T...",
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---

## message-1363263132331409679

**2025-04-19T21:20:58.952+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363263132331409679`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363263132331409679
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2025-11/2025-11.json

**Content**

```text
Yes.
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1363263280478687312

**2025-04-19T21:21:34.273+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363263280478687312`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
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- User name: 246tnt
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**Content**

```text
Although I'm not sure we get much into PDN anywhere.
People tend to think power distribution is boring stuff 😅
```

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---

## message-1363263376649879703

**2025-04-19T21:21:57.202+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363263376649879703`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363263376649879703
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**Content**

```text
Just the stuff blocking the view of their chip art that lies underneath.
```

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---

## message-1363263417649205430

**2025-04-19T21:22:06.977+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1363263417649205430`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
- Nickname: Tim 'mithro' Ansell
- User name: mithro_
- Type: `Default`
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**Content**

```text
Yeah 🙂
```

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---

## message-1363263754946609208

**2025-04-19T21:23:27.395+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363263754946609208`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363263754946609208
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**Content**

```text
I did a bunch of measurement and improvements over the various shuttles ... and TT8 would have been the final iteration with all the improvements done 😅  But I guess I'll never see the result of that ...
```

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---

## message-1363264613432561694

**2025-04-19T21:26:52.074+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1363264613432561694`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
- Nickname: Tim 'mithro' Ansell
- User name: mithro_
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**Content**

```text
> we still end up with PDN impedance higher than I'd like

What is the effect of the higher PDN impedance?
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1363265134017122506

**2025-04-19T21:28:56.191+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363265134017122506`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1363265134017122506
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**Content**

```text
For digital it can cause voltage drops when power spikes on clock transition, that can screw up your timings.
For analog, well your supply drop more with power usage, so depending on how much current you use, that can get your design out of its correct operating point.
```

<details>
<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1363265830955258119

**2025-04-19T21:31:42.354+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1363265830955258119`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
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**Content**

```text
For GF180 you probably have a bit more margin ... simply because dropping 0.1V of 5V isn't quite as bad as loosing 0.1V when your VDD is 1.8V (or 1.2V for IHP).
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1363273425409544342

**2025-04-19T22:01:53.013+00:00 — Tim 'mithro' Ansell (@mithro_)**

- Message ID: `1363273425409544342`
- Author ID: `169786952432746498`
- Nickname: Tim 'mithro' Ansell
- User name: mithro_
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**Content**

```text
Yeah
```

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---

## message-1473727264809029823

**2026-02-18T17:06:00.459+00:00 — Samuel Napaa (@samuelnapaa)**

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- Author ID: `1460941629706997834`
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**Content**

```text
I need information on the thickness of the chip
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1473842188533104991

**2026-02-19T00:42:40.41+00:00 — Andrew Wingate (@anfroholic)**

- Message ID: `1473842188533104991`
- Author ID: `756011607603019777`
- Nickname: Andrew Wingate
- User name: anfroholic
- Type: `Reply`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1473842188533104991
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2026-02/2026-02.json

**Reply/reference**
- https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1473727264809029823
<details>
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**Content**

```text
We don't have a real answer for that, but we will not be back grinding these or anything.
It is probably safe to assume they will be ~0.75mm
```

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## message-1473999609998082141

**2026-02-19T11:08:12.612+00:00 — Samuel Napaa (@samuelnapaa)**

- Message ID: `1473999609998082141`
- Author ID: `1460941629706997834`
- Nickname: Samuel Napaa
- User name: samuelnapaa
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1473999609998082141
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2026-02/2026-02.json

**Content**

```text
alright thanks
```

<details>
<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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## message-1475328962719907988

**2026-02-23T03:10:34.999+00:00 — Alb123 (@alb123_)**

- Message ID: `1475328962719907988`
- Author ID: `753324355420684329`
- Nickname: Alb123
- User name: alb123_
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1475328962719907988
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2026-02/2026-02.json

**Content**

```text
hi is there a question channell
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1475330502515757157

**2026-02-23T03:16:42.115+00:00 — Alb123 (@alb123_)**

- Message ID: `1475330502515757157`
- Author ID: `753324355420684329`
- Nickname: Alb123
- User name: alb123_
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1361350052395618434/1475330502515757157
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/Internal/gf180mcu-opt/2026-02/2026-02.json

**Content**

```text
Is solder bumping possible post-fabrication? I wanted to try to flip two chips on top of each other and try to make a 2.5d chip
```

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