---
page_id: wsd-bent-gates-fe5d2ba9
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title: "Thread: bent gates"
slug: wsd-bent-gates-fe5d2ba9
route: /evidence/i-information/general/threads/bent-gates
section: reference
access: public
summary: 20 Discord messages from ℹ️ - Information/general/threads/bent-gates.md.
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---

# Thread: bent gates

Category: **ℹ️ - Information**
Parent channel: **#general**
Thread ID: `1525554170323669053`

Messages: **20**

## message-1525554176711459058

**2026-07-11T17:27:39.154+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1525554176711459058`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1525554176711459058
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text
Well, so, let's start off with a "mild" complaint about the DRC deck, at least as far as I'd understand it to be:
```

**Attachments**

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## message-1525554252871635104

**2026-07-11T17:27:57.312+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1525554252871635104`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1525554252871635104
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text

```

**Attachments**

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---

## message-1525554707706281985

**2026-07-11T17:29:45.753+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1525554707706281985`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1525554707706281985
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text
to be clear, the step is 5nm and the sections are 0.32 um and 0.325 um.
```

**Attachments**

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---

## message-1525583061180219605

**2026-07-11T19:22:25.748+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1525583061180219605`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1525583061180219605
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text
Channel width is the other direction.
```

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## message-1525583453649895496

**2026-07-11T19:23:59.32+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1525583453649895496`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1525583453649895496
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text
Not that it justifies an error...
```

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## message-1525588708907290664

**2026-07-11T19:44:52.271+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1525588708907290664`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Reply`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1525588708907290664
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

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**Content**

```text
Width is measured along the edge of "poly on comp"; length is measured normal to that edge.
```

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---

## message-1525589682887331920

**2026-07-11T19:48:44.486+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1525589682887331920`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Reply`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1525589682887331920
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

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**Content**

```text
Yeah, I'm hoping to at least lay down a couple calibration gates to allow calibrating magic extraction and SPICE models for bent gates at least a week ahead of Run3's GDS deadline.

Would be bad to have the DRC deck break that.
```

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---

## message-1525590856047005728

**2026-07-11T19:53:24.189+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1525590856047005728`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1525590856047005728
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text
Might as well post the writeup I did on one use case where bends would/might come up:

https://www.tumblr.com/namibj/821872240790503424/rotationally-symmetric-pseudo-nmos-multiplexers
```

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## message-1525593418410102945

**2026-07-11T20:03:35.104+00:00 — tnt (@246tnt)**

- Message ID: `1525593418410102945`
- Author ID: `596068704471482370`
- Nickname: tnt
- User name: 246tnt
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1525593418410102945
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text
0.22 um min channel width is the minimal width of the diffusion for a transistor. i.e. the "W" of the transistor.
the measurement you took correspond to the length L of the transistor and the min for that is 0.28um.
```

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## message-1525614318924595231

**2026-07-11T21:26:38.175+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1525614318924595231`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Reply`
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Oh that yeah; I meant the DRC highlight in bright yellow that was complained about being not wide enough.
```

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## message-1526065582766817361

**2026-07-13T03:19:47.859+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1526065582766817361`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Default`
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@Tim Edwards Does this (m1 hidden) look like it should work effectively for calibrating how channel width is to be measured most accurately for extraction to work properly?
I'd look forward to extending it by one or 2 contact pitches into an elongated shape to have a convenient linear shaped one for reference/calibrating against.

This is specifically to check your way of calculating the BSIM4 instance parameters from the geometry.
```

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## message-1526212919631810591

**2026-07-13T13:05:15.705+00:00 — Tim Edwards (@rtimothyedwards_19428)**

- Message ID: `1526212919631810591`
- Author ID: `1365118310701600900`
- Nickname: Tim Edwards
- User name: rtimothyedwards_19428
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**Content**

```text
@namibj :  I did a set of annular/enclosed drain devices for GF180MCU last week, and these all appear to be DRC clean.  I will post the layout and netlist.  Only device type "E" is extracted incorrectly, and that's because without the source terminals connected, it is effectively a 5-terminal device and the tech file does not describe how to extract a 5-terminal device (even when I connect the sides, the extracted width is lower than I would expect).
```

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---

## message-1526213159956775015

**2026-07-13T13:06:13.003+00:00 — Tim Edwards (@rtimothyedwards_19428)**

- Message ID: `1526213159956775015`
- Author ID: `1365118310701600900`
- Nickname: Tim Edwards
- User name: rtimothyedwards_19428
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526213159956775015
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text
These are the layout and netlist files.
```

**Attachments**

- Resolved media URL: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07_media/annular_fet_potpourri-18A02.mag
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<summary>Attachments data</summary>

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---

## message-1526213952730693782

**2026-07-13T13:09:22.015+00:00 — Tim Edwards (@rtimothyedwards_19428)**

- Message ID: `1526213952730693782`
- Author ID: `1365118310701600900`
- Nickname: Tim Edwards
- User name: rtimothyedwards_19428
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526213952730693782
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text
When I run extraction, I am getting an error that I expect is related to some development work I did a few months ago;  that development work resulted in much better estimates of width for these type of transistors.  But it appears that magic is having problems with an angled edge at one specific orientation, which might make the width calculations slightly off.  I will investigate this.
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1526215506602889276

**2026-07-13T13:15:32.487+00:00 — Tim Edwards (@rtimothyedwards_19428)**

- Message ID: `1526215506602889276`
- Author ID: `1365118310701600900`
- Nickname: Tim Edwards
- User name: rtimothyedwards_19428
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526215506602889276
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text
Note that there are various methods for calculating effective width of an annular or enclosed-drain device.  Ultimately there is no real exact answer;  to reproduce the exact device characteristics in simulation would require a dedicated model.  Trying to force it into a model for a rectangular device can only be an approximation.  My approach (which is similar to others' approaches if not exact in detail) is to use the minimum length as the length of the transistor, then find all other parts of the geometry and measure the (W / L) and then scale those to the minimum length.
```

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---

## message-1526238568308146227

**2026-07-13T14:47:10.826+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1526238568308146227`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Reply`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526238568308146227
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Reply/reference**
- https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526215506602889276
<details>
<summary>Reference data</summary>

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**Content**

```text
Oh I'm not at all against calibrating a derivative/sibling of the `level=54` BSIM4 model adapted specifically to appropriately handle the bends (for larger devices)/true-annular-aspects (for [near-]minimum-size devices).
I'd just really hope to not need to do some teacher forcing transfer learning thing of using a less-abandoned BSIM model type/`level` (that's still appropriate for the planar non-LDMOS non-parasitic mosfets the gf180mcuD process can produce) who's parameters are fitted to match (up to some appropriate regularization scheme that keeps the parameters physically realistic instead of going for some pathological overfitting) the existing `level=54` models, and from where support for annual nuances would be less-nonphysical.
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1526307279970762938

**2026-07-13T19:20:12.963+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1526307279970762938`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Reply`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526307279970762938
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Reply/reference**
- https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526213952730693782
<details>
<summary>Reference data</summary>

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**Content**

```text
We have about until the test dies of Run2 get to whatever e-test "lab" goes through a stack of dies with the DC equivalent of a network analyzer (source measure unit?), because IMO we'd want to have reasonable bounds for the expected current for all the voltage combinations applied, to (1) immediately flag potential shorts/opens to not accidentally melt a hole into a test die from a badly behaved test structure, and (2) have a chance of measuring the current for _interesting_ tuples of node voltages, i.e., ones that together vaguely approximate a perfectly picked group of that-many bias points when the goal is to calibrate a new BSIM model or at least new (previously not-modeled but legal to tape out) BSIM model bins.
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1526414261390151810

**2026-07-14T02:25:19.321+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1526414261390151810`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Reply`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526414261390151810
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Reply/reference**
- https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526212919631810591
<details>
<summary>Reference data</summary>

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**Content**

```text
would you be interested in sharing a slot with various such test structures aimed at improving simulation (incl. extraction) accuracy?
```

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<summary>Other message metadata</summary>

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---

## message-1526640988662137014

**2026-07-14T17:26:15.315+00:00 — Tim Edwards (@rtimothyedwards_19428)**

- Message ID: `1526640988662137014`
- Author ID: `1365118310701600900`
- Nickname: Tim Edwards
- User name: rtimothyedwards_19428
- Type: `Default`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526640988662137014
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Content**

```text
Sure, I'd be happy to work on test structures.  Although if you mean for Run #2, I don't have time to work on it before the run deadline.  For Run #3, I'd be happy to collaborate on a test chip.
```

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---

## message-1526653519644590211

**2026-07-14T18:16:02.934+00:00 — namibj**

- Message ID: `1526653519644590211`
- Author ID: `262706220073222144`
- Nickname: namibj
- User name: namibj
- Type: `Reply`
- Discord message: https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526653519644590211
- Archive source: https://discord.wafer.space/wafer-space/%E2%84%B9%EF%B8%8F%20-%20Information/general/bent-gates/2026-07/2026-07.json

**Reply/reference**
- https://discord.com/channels/1361349522684510449/1525554170323669053/1526640988662137014
<details>
<summary>Reference data</summary>

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**Content**

```text
Oh hmmm.

Well I can't promise I'll succeed to cook up the e-test MUX and sufficient project wrapper to pass w.s platform precheck, but if I do, I'd be happy to drop in a good couple of those.

Rough estimates suggest there'll be about 80 DUTs, though if nothing else uses the top half of the core area for other purposes, I might mirror the MUX and thus double the DUT count.
```

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---